Getting to Know Kimberly (02:05)
Cindy:
I am so excited to have one of my close friends, Kim Mitchell, thanks for being on the show with us today.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Thank you so much, Cindy. It's great to be here.
Cindy:
So I'd love for you to set the stage for our audience. What is the work that you do that you are most passionate about?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Honestly, I'm really passionate about helping students and teachers become protagonists of their school experience. Honestly, anything that really pushes the envelope for what's possible inside these places we call schools and classrooms, creating spaces where teachers and students feel capable, supported, challenged, and... full of wonder and inspiration. So that's sort of the lofty vision. I mean, as you know, Cindy, inquiry-based instructional practices and project-based learning, that's my bread and butter. That's what I've always loved to do. And that's what I've really focused on as a school leader. But there are two areas that I'm now sort of obsessed with. The first is bringing philosophy into the classroom and into schools. So philosophical thinking, I am a philosophy major undergrad. I never thought I'd be a teacher. I was a philosophy major. What do you do as a philosophy major? Well, you become an inquiry leader, I guess. And then the other thing I'm really learning a lot about and curious about is how we can use inquiry and philosophical thinking with high school students. as they transition to post-secondary, whatever that means for them.
Cindy:
This is something that I found when talking with inquiry people is that if you have a side passion of your own, it's almost better because then you have something to apply all this thinking towards and your thinking becomes more complex. So can you dig a little bit into philosophy, the connections you see and how that's grown your inquiry practice?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh my gosh. I mean, the connection is right there. I mean, I'm sort of flabbergasted that we don't intentionally teach philosophy more inside classrooms. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me because inquiry and getting students to ask big, expansive, bold questions is subversive, right? So if you think about how schools started, it was to create compliance, good workers, obedience. And so this is... a practice that sort of challenges that traditional system. I just, I think it's, gosh, how did I get into it? I, you know, I teach at the University of Washington in Seattle, and there is a group, the philosophy department started a group called Philosophy for Children. It's now called PLATO, P-L-A-T-O, Philosophy, Learning and Teaching Organization, and I'm just jumping into their... webinars, their meetings, their seminars. I'm a judge every year at the ethics bowl where high school students come together and they discuss, they raise up ethical questions from case studies. I love the daily stoic. I,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you know, I just, now I'm just so attuned to all the ethical questions that are happening with, you know, AI. and all the advances in technology, but also the existential issues with climate change. And I think we need to apply philosophical questioning and some of the, you know, and it's not all rooted in the Greek philosophers, right?
Making space and time for perspective taking (6:00)
Cindy:
Can you role play this for me? So let's say I'm a leader and one of the ethical things you brought up that's really buzzy right now is AI, right? So if I wanted to get my team talking about this, what might be some strategies or lessons or tools that you would use?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh, I'd probably start with a case study. So like a 350 word case study that talks about an issue that's come up in a school. So let's say we are middle school principals and you would use something like an issue that comes up with chat GPT and the ethics around that. And it would be a case study. It would just be, here's the situation. You know, a student wrote an essay using chat GPT. You're looking at it. figure out if this is plagiarism or not, the creativity involved,
Cindy:
Okay.
Kimberly Mitchell:
et cetera. And then you would present that to your staff in a staff meeting and have them get in small groups. And before they make a point about it, like give an opinion, you would say, just raise the questions. What are the ethical questions this raises?
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
So what you're doing is you're modeling, what it might look like in a classroom of students with your teachers. You say, before you stake your claim, let's elevate the questions, let's listen to each other, and then let's talk about how you would sort this out. I mean, the advanced level would be, if you start to look at different philosophers in history and how they would approach ethical dilemmas, you could have them apply that, but it's not about. the legalese, it's not about
Cindy:
No.
What’s future shock? (7:39)
Kimberly Mitchell:
knowledge, it's about coming to it from a completely different place of understanding where we're going in the future and getting our, and this is actually really relevant right now because I think, have you ever heard the term future shock?
Cindy:
No, but I'd like
Kimberly Mitchell:
Okay.
Cindy:
for you to explain it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Future shock is, was a term developed by, um, I know Charles Weingartner who wrote teaching as a subversive activity. This is 1968, 1969, 1970, when a lot of things were happening, right? Cultural revolutions in the US. And these thinkers, I mean, education philosophers, they call themselves said, here's the thing. Um, people have a strong, it's very difficult for humans to integrate everything that's changing in this world right now. It's a lot, right?
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And so you can shock people. It's the shattering stress and disorientation that we induce on individuals by subjecting them to too much change in too short of a time. And
Cindy:
Hashtag
Kimberly Mitchell:
so
Cindy:
COVID.
Kimberly Mitchell:
like COVID, right? And so what happens is you have this paralysis that takes place and school leaders know this, right? There's a paralysis if there's too much at once and the rapid changes. And so what we need to do is to breathe in some spaces for people to just sit with it a little bit and get
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
an understanding of it before solving or fixing. And
Cindy:
I like
Kimberly Mitchell:
so
Cindy:
that.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I would say, Yeah, if you're a school leader, get on the Ethics Bowl website and look at some case studies, download them and share them with staff and have them practice raising ethical questions and then they can do them with students.
Refuse to be sent to war (9:39)
Cindy:
That's very, it's a very cool use case. It reminds me of a quote that you said in one of our past conversations that I feel like has just got stuck in my head and I reference it a lot. But you talked about how we should never be sent to war and that the more informed we are, the more research that we have on our side, the more perspectives we can take, the less inclined we are to be sent to war for what we believe. And so it's almost like we're. By doing it in this way, we're able to take that circle of viewpoints, circle of perspectives, and consider all sides before we start saying what we believe in getting entrenched in it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, actually that is Kath Murdoch. That's Kath Murdoch quote. And she, if I remember correctly, she posted something and got some pushback and wrote another blog post that was beautiful about how this isn't about going to war. This is about, you know, again, expanding the conversation, understanding. So yeah, to me, it just means like we need to slow down. give people some time because I think there's a lot of reactionary responses. And I think, um, in, in many cultures, Western cultures, especially those of us who work in schools with, um, socially mobile families, there's all, there's a race, right. And race begets reaction, quick reaction. And so we just need to slow it down and get a better understanding. And like you say, taking more perspectives and philosophy. for me, gives us that opportunity.
Cindy:
I can see the application in a lot of things. So if I'm creating a new policy, if I'm making a school-wide decision as a leader, rather than just making these decisions or creating these policies, this might be a cool way to open up more thoughtful dialogue, like starting with a case study.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I do, you know, at the beginning of a school year with staff and students, just talking about norms, right? Setting norms for discussions. Instead of saying, okay, let's all get together in groups and think of the things that are important, another approach would be, let's look at a case study. Let's look at a real story. Talk about what you would do in this situation. It's coming at things a little bit more creatively. Or here's another one. And this is another website that I think school leaders should bookmark. It's liberating structures. And they have a list of 33 different conversational structures that they can use. It's, it's designed actually for the corporate world and for nonprofits with adults, adult learning. And one of them is called heard, seen, respected. Can you imagine at the beginning of a school year, as a school leader, having your teachers go one to one pair up with one person. ideally someone they don't know very well, knee to knee tell each other about a time when they felt they were not heard, seen and respected. And after, and the purpose of this is not to fix them or make them feel better or it's just to listen. And once you hear someone's story about that time, you become acutely aware about what you should avoid doing as someone in conversation.
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That to me is the best way to establish norms because then you're creating authentic empathy based on real stories. So yeah, I think, I mean, I think making better use of the staff meeting and I think thinking about, and I know we'll probably get into this, how do we as leaders model inquiry-based practices?
The origins of Kim’s Inquiry 5 (13:21)
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
This is what I'm talking about, making use of every opportunity, the staff meeting, the parent meeting, the one-on-ones, the committee meetings, every opportunity to model creative thinking and inquiry-based practices.
Cindy:
That's so much of what I love about your work is that I think a lot of the big misconception around inquiry-based learning is that it's something I do in my classroom. It's a type of way I organize my lesson plans or it's the thing that I'm teaching. And I think what you help people to see is that inquiry is a stance. It's a way of being and relating to others. And there's so much capacity for growth in that. So might we pivot to talk about your inquiry five and how you build those cultures of inquiry.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, yes, it is a stance. It is a disposition, as Trevor McKenzie will say, a mindset, right?
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And that's why it's so hard to actually do, because it's not a step-by-step process, right? If
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's a disposition, it's a set of beliefs that undergird what you're doing. How did I come up with those Inquiry Five? Okay, 30 years of watching inquiry-based teachers. is really my answer. And then just tons of reading and studying and reading transcripts and listening to others who have come before me. And there are many, right? But I would say... The moment where I realized I have to give teachers and leaders more than just, oh, it's a stance and it's, you know, these esoteric, you know, you have to like, give something that people can hold on to and move with initially some
Cindy:
Hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
structure. I was challenged. This was a long time ago in the late nineties. I went, I was working with international baccalaureate and I went to a school and I said, you know, the foundational pedagogy of IB schools is inquiry. And I remember it was a woman, a teacher in the back row just raised her hand and said, I don't know what you're talking about. Show us what you mean.
Cindy:
Awesome.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right? Awesome. And terrifying.
Cindy:
Haha yeah!
Kimberly Mitchell:
I need to put my money where my mouth is. I need to come back to the school. I need a model inquiry. And I did. I went back to that school and I went to... classrooms with teachers watching me and tried to implement an
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
inquiry lesson with their students whoo And I'm pretty sure it wasn't Beautiful. It was probably you know There are moments of beauty and there is moments of it going sideways But they so respected me being willing to try it out with them. What
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
happened after that was this? bubbling up these conversations with teachers who watch, saying, I noticed this, this kept happening. I noticed this was your reaction. And so what I tried to do is distill those things that you see no matter what grade level, no matter what subject, what are the things we see happening in the best inquiry classrooms?
Cindy:
Ooh, okay.
The Inquiry 5 (14:21)
Kimberly Mitchell:
So the first two are dispositions. They're definitely mindsets. The first is that you have a belief that it's a relationship. You need to get personal. Right?
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That knowing students and having them know each other, and then all of you having a relationship with the content is really, really important.
Cindy:
And what has been the biggest game changer for that? Because for me, that was the aha was, oh, I'm a learner and I'm applying the IB framework in the world around me and it like flipped the switch. But is there a way that leaders can either model or is there a practice they can promote that really gets people personal quickly?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, I would say start with routines and structures. So you might even like, there's one that I came across recently, it's called the daily dedication. And it's just a routine where you as a principal can do this in a staff meeting. You could say I'm gonna dedicate this workshop to my late grandfather, you know, Earl P. Lashaw III, who, you know, and you tell a story, a personal story. And then you pass the baton to another staff member for the next staff meeting. And people get
Cindy:
Wow, okay.
Kimberly Mitchell:
to know a little bit about that person. That's a really great routine. Teachers do that with students in classrooms and then students get to know each other. I would say, and I would be curious what you think Cindy, but I think part of this is getting at vulnerability.
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
It's just saying I am, I'm a human being. I am a leader. I can be decisive. I do have some power and authority, but I'm human. And I, I still have questions too. So how do you balance that?
Cindy:
which is the theme that has come up again and again in these conversations. It's just, that is how we lead now. There is not this sense of, I am the leader, so I know. If you've got that, get rid of it. It's not helping you, it's not helping your team. The more that you can embrace those pieces of yourself that you are nervous about, the things you are growing in, oh, it's just, it's so much more authentic.
Kimberly Mitchell:
For sure, crying, authentic tears, being
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
vulnerable, being emotional. Now here's the thing, we don't really have good political models for this. We live at a time where our leader models, political leaders are not doing this. And so we as educators have to do it instead.
Cindy:
I love that. We are teaching our kids how to be people. They're seeing us as a model of humanity.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
So how do we bring all of ourselves, all of those pieces, even the sticky ones into the classroom?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. And that leads us to the second disposition, which is staying curious. So if you're willing to be vulnerable, you're also willing to be wrong or to not know. Now, I would never say, as teachers, we should go into a lesson not knowing things. That's irresponsible. There's a certain curriculum that we need to help uncover. We need to know it deeply. On the other hand, I think it's such a missed opportunity not to share with people what questions are still outstanding for us and for
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
the world. What are the mysteries? What are we still grappling with? And that makes them excited because
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
we are excited. It's not just something we're transferring to them. So, you know, I teach comparative international education and I'm still wondering about, you know, what are the... politics around getting students to ask questions in certain countries and What? What are the impacts of large class sizes on student accountability and responsibility?
Cindy:
Guess.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I Mean there's just tons of questions. I still have and so when my students hear me they know that there's this is not a fixed Body of knowledge that they must memorize. This is something that is evolving and moving and organic and exciting So that brings a lot more joy to it. And I think it
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
makes leaders and teachers more accessible.
Cindy:
And that's where the play comes in, like curiosity and play and flow come from that space. Like my new burning question is, where do the have to's come from? Like every leader you talk to says, oh, well, we have to. Where do those come from and who's making those? And how do I talk to them?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, I mean, imagine like when I was a principal, I remember staff meetings where I would get nervous like I know I'm going to get some tough questions and I know who they're going to come from. What if I got ahead of that? What if I came into the meeting with my own questions or with their questions already in mind instead of feeling like I have to, you know, I had my back against the wall and had to defend?
Cindy:
Yeah, refuse
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
to be sent to war, I love it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Refused to be sent to war. Yes, Kath Murdock had to So those are the two, you know Sort of dispositional things that bubble up in inquiry classrooms that you know, it's called the inquiry five Why because it's much easier to remember five things and not ten The last three are Asmore talk less right encourage evidence especially important in this day and age with so much information of
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
varying quality and Finally extend thinking time which is to be honest with you Cindy. I Still have a really hard time doing because
Cindy:
Same.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I talk fast I move fast. I mean, I feel like it's just being Raised in schools spending my entire career inside these schools where the pace is frenetic
Cindy:
There's so much on the plate. The plate has stayed the same size. We just keep adding more on to it, but we still have the same amount of time in the day. So how do we do that? How do we make more think time when there is so much going on?
Kimberly Mitchell:
you know, again, like I'm still working on that. I think you have to make choices. You have to know what's important and what's not important and let some things go.
Cindy:
tricky, tricky stuff.
Kimberly Mitchell:
very tricky.
Using data to inform an inquiry (23:19)
Cindy:
I think a lot of our audience will be interested in the data point. So can you talk a little bit more about that of how we can use data in joyous ways, in life-bringing ways, in valuable ways that grow our practice versus shut kids down and shut learning down?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, I actually, I'm looking at my screen because I wrote some ideas down for this. I mean, here's the thing. Data can be really exciting and it can be really exciting to collect it.
Cindy:
It's good.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I think the first thing that I think about is when it's right to collect data, like who drives that data collection? I think it should always be the person who is asking for it, we should wait for them. I think it's hard to force people to take in feedback when they're not ready and to give
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
them data when they're not ready. So everything I say would be like ready the environment for it, for someone to be able to listen. So I like the idea of asking teachers, what are you curious about in your classroom? So if a teacher says, I'm just wondering like, are, why are these five students never talking and these six students always talking? And am I right? Is my perception correct? And going from there and determining, form follows function, then
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
what kinds of data collection needs to happen? Well, maybe I could come into your classroom and just record who's talking and what they're saying, or maybe you could have a student do
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that. So soliciting help, from teachers to come in and take notes and observe or to record. And I think the other thing is don't be afraid to ask your students. And for teachers, for principals, don't be afraid to ask your teachers what's working, what's not. So in my book, you know, I have surveys that you can reproduce and give to students and teachers about how am I doing on these sort of inquiry based points. Right? Am I modeling asking more and talking less? How can I do better? That's a brave thing to do is to really actively solicit information from your staff about how you're doing. I know that schools sometimes have that already in place, but I think you could do it on another level. I think
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you could ask more specific inquiry-based questions about how you're doing.
Cindy:
I think I'm hearing that we almost want schools just to be these giant workshops of creativity and of inquiry and that everything that we're doing in a school should be driven by someone's wondering as opposed to
Kimberly Mitchell:
Beautiful.
Cindy:
a system or a metric. Is that?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I think that's a beautiful vision. Yes, absolutely. And we're not there in most schools yet. And I understand
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
why there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of compliance, there are a lot of rules in place that make it challenging. But here's the other thing. I think there's one of the biggest misconceptions about inquiry is that you do it all the time. It's all inquiry all the time. And I think that's a huge... not only misconception, but a burden on teachers who feel like, well, wait a minute. I have things that I need. What about the phonics? What about the math
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that needs to happen? What about I'm teaching a world language? We need to balance this out. There is a time and a place for direct instruction, a good lecture, some memorization.
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And it's the same with leaders and staff. There's a time when they need direct information. They don't need a leader to say, well, what do you think? You
Cindy:
Let's
Kimberly Mitchell:
know,
Cindy:
inquire into this.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that gets so annoying, right? So it's the balance. And that's part of the tension. And that's what makes us a profession and not a job, because it's an art form, not
Cindy:
Mmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just science. It's an art doing
Cindy:
It
Kimberly Mitchell:
that.
Cindy:
made me think of a story from my classroom. So I taught grade five, and we were studying multiple digit multiplication, a skill most fifth graders should have when they come to fifth grade. And I think this is a perfect example of where inquiry gets in the way, is I talked to my kids and said, okay, let's do a pre-assessment, multiply these numbers for me. And I saw beautiful strategies. Every kid had a different strategy. Every kid could explain their thinking and why, but every kid got the answer wrong. None of them could appropriately do it. So it's one thing to say we need to have space for creativity and strategies and sharing our thinking. And also, you need to be able to actually do the thing. So
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes,
Cindy:
it's a tension
Kimberly Mitchell:
yes.
Cindy:
for sure.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, we need grist for the mill, a
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
very old fashioned way of saying that. We need them to know some things in order to play, right?
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Like you mentioned, play, play is so important. And as we play, we need to develop skills to make the play more exciting.
Cindy:
Yeah.
Balancing the “have tos” (28:26)
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, so it is a balance. And I think that's a misconception we need to really continue to talk about. people to go easy on themselves. There's so much pressure. Oh, I have to do this in an inquiry-based way. You can take a break. You can balance. Remember that there's a time and a place for everything.
Cindy:
love to see more work in doing that, that work of sorting. What is the must in our curriculum? Because if your must in your curriculum is 90% of the time, there isn't space for inquiry and depth and understanding. Can we whittle that down to a %, 30% must that leaves space for that? Because if not, then it's an unfair ask. If we're saying that 90% of what you need to know is a
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, yeah.
Cindy:
then we're at odds there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That'll be a great conversation to have in with teams or, you know, also in my book, I have teachers write down in 15 minutes all their curriculum. What are the concepts you have to teach in the year?
Cindy:
Ooh.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. It's an impossible ask and that's the
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
right. But what, what, what you notice when you ask people to do that is they distill automatically. What they think is most important. Imagine as a principal negotiating with teachers, looking at what they write. And then, you know, like Heidi Hayes-Jacobs, putting it all on a wall and looking at where we have, you know, repeats, overlaps, are there places we can let go and reinforce? I think that that would be a really good exercise. But the only thing that I would say with that, as I think about it, is that we tend to put a lot of attention on the curriculum, what we need to teach, the what, and we don't talk about the how as much as we need to. the instructional
Cindy:
Hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
point, the pedagogy, so important. And that's why, you know, that's why I really love how Tottle shines a light on that part of this practice. Because what platforms like Tottle do for us is they give us the structure so that we can attend more to the pedagogy. This art and science is craft of the
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
delivering of the curriculum. without constantly circling around curriculum and assessment,
Cindy:
What?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I would say. Spend
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
a lot of time there, maybe a little too much time.
Cindy:
Yeah, that was a big aha for me as an educator, I think. Was the success criteria a bit of breaking down explicit knowledge versus understanding and skills? Because when you have your curriculum laid out in that way, you can see the flexibility, especially
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
in understanding and skills. Oh, these are all the things we can do, and you don't just get bogged down by all that content.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, right. That's another thing that Kath Murdoch will say is just know your curriculum so that you can get it out of the way. You can play, you can dance, you can connect things and you can understand like, okay, check. We got that down. It doesn't need to be a discrete lesson because I know we just had this experience. Being really, yeah, getting ahead of your curriculum.
Cindy:
So leaders make time for this, I think, is what we're getting at, is that if we want inquiry to happen, it needs space and it needs time. And if you're feeling jammed and bombarded by a million different things, you're not gonna have the space and time. So what is worth knowing? What is worth exploring? What is worth puzzling?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, yeah. And that it goes back to that future shock. You don't want teachers to have future shock because that's paralysis. And that's when people dig into traditional what they feel comfortable with. Right.
Cindy:
Makes a lot of sense.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Okay, I think that's a beautiful spot to pause. So Kim, I have a set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show. So are you ready for our final three? Okay,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Sure.
School Leaders’ Countdown: The Final 3! (32:25)
Cindy:
so question number one is, what is the book that you've read that's had the most profound impact on your practice? So Kim, I have a set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show. So are you ready for our final three? Okay, so question number one is, what is the book that you've read
Kimberly Mitchell:
Mmm. Well, I think it's the book I already mentioned, Teaching as a Subversive Activity by Charles Weingartner and Neil Postman. And it was written in the late 60s. And it just, it's a radical book about how we should change education.
Cindy:
And do you think any of those changes have happened or are happening? Or do you think we still have quite a ways
Kimberly Mitchell:
In
Cindy:
to go?
Kimberly Mitchell:
this wonderful community of inquiry and instruction and play-based instruction and concept-based and project-based, yes, absolutely. Has it filtered to the majority of schools on this planet yet? No,
Cindy:
Not yet.
Kimberly Mitchell:
not yet. Not yet. And this is a book that was written a long time ago. So we're still working on it. Old habits really die hard. And I would say the other misconception with inquiry is that these practices won't prepare students for the future. Or
Cindy:
Come
Kimberly Mitchell:
let's
Cindy:
on.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just be more explicit. This is, this is as a parent, I can, I know the talk. These practices won't get students into the right colleges because they won't have the test scores. They won't have the knowledge base and then they won't get into good jobs for the future. But we know that's wrong. We know
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that companies are seeking the very students that come from inquiry-based environments. We want
Cindy:
Mmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
question askers. We want people who are very creative. We want people who are emotive, right?
Cindy:
collaborative.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Who offer some collaborative, who offer something that AI cannot. Boy, it's, it's a new world. So inquiry. and philosophical thinking, they provide those skills for students. And if you notice, you know, the economy is driving what the corporations need from workers, which drives what colleges are asking for from K-12. And I know as someone who coaches students with inquiry to go to college, that colleges are looking for students that are, that go way beyond the test score and the grades. Yes, that's still an important thing, but they want a different narrative. They want students who are leaders, who are collaborative, who are creative, who are critical thinkers. In the United States, most universities and colleges have already gone test optional. So they are not even looking at test scores anymore.
Cindy:
Thank you! Because it's just a socioeconomic ranking, like let's get real here.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, right. So anyway, that's just another plug for what we're doing. This is the direction we need to head.
Getting to Know Kimberly (02:05)
Cindy:
I am so excited to have one of my close friends, Kim Mitchell, thanks for being on the show with us today.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Thank you so much, Cindy. It's great to be here.
Cindy:
So I'd love for you to set the stage for our audience. What is the work that you do that you are most passionate about?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Honestly, I'm really passionate about helping students and teachers become protagonists of their school experience. Honestly, anything that really pushes the envelope for what's possible inside these places we call schools and classrooms, creating spaces where teachers and students feel capable, supported, challenged, and... full of wonder and inspiration. So that's sort of the lofty vision. I mean, as you know, Cindy, inquiry-based instructional practices and project-based learning, that's my bread and butter. That's what I've always loved to do. And that's what I've really focused on as a school leader. But there are two areas that I'm now sort of obsessed with. The first is bringing philosophy into the classroom and into schools. So philosophical thinking, I am a philosophy major undergrad. I never thought I'd be a teacher. I was a philosophy major. What do you do as a philosophy major? Well, you become an inquiry leader, I guess. And then the other thing I'm really learning a lot about and curious about is how we can use inquiry and philosophical thinking with high school students. as they transition to post-secondary, whatever that means for them.
Cindy:
This is something that I found when talking with inquiry people is that if you have a side passion of your own, it's almost better because then you have something to apply all this thinking towards and your thinking becomes more complex. So can you dig a little bit into philosophy, the connections you see and how that's grown your inquiry practice?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh my gosh. I mean, the connection is right there. I mean, I'm sort of flabbergasted that we don't intentionally teach philosophy more inside classrooms. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me because inquiry and getting students to ask big, expansive, bold questions is subversive, right? So if you think about how schools started, it was to create compliance, good workers, obedience. And so this is... a practice that sort of challenges that traditional system. I just, I think it's, gosh, how did I get into it? I, you know, I teach at the University of Washington in Seattle, and there is a group, the philosophy department started a group called Philosophy for Children. It's now called PLATO, P-L-A-T-O, Philosophy, Learning and Teaching Organization, and I'm just jumping into their... webinars, their meetings, their seminars. I'm a judge every year at the ethics bowl where high school students come together and they discuss, they raise up ethical questions from case studies. I love the daily stoic. I,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you know, I just, now I'm just so attuned to all the ethical questions that are happening with, you know, AI. and all the advances in technology, but also the existential issues with climate change. And I think we need to apply philosophical questioning and some of the, you know, and it's not all rooted in the Greek philosophers, right?
Making space and time for perspective taking (6:00)
Cindy:
Can you role play this for me? So let's say I'm a leader and one of the ethical things you brought up that's really buzzy right now is AI, right? So if I wanted to get my team talking about this, what might be some strategies or lessons or tools that you would use?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh, I'd probably start with a case study. So like a 350 word case study that talks about an issue that's come up in a school. So let's say we are middle school principals and you would use something like an issue that comes up with chat GPT and the ethics around that. And it would be a case study. It would just be, here's the situation. You know, a student wrote an essay using chat GPT. You're looking at it. figure out if this is plagiarism or not, the creativity involved,
Cindy:
Okay.
Kimberly Mitchell:
et cetera. And then you would present that to your staff in a staff meeting and have them get in small groups. And before they make a point about it, like give an opinion, you would say, just raise the questions. What are the ethical questions this raises?
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
So what you're doing is you're modeling, what it might look like in a classroom of students with your teachers. You say, before you stake your claim, let's elevate the questions, let's listen to each other, and then let's talk about how you would sort this out. I mean, the advanced level would be, if you start to look at different philosophers in history and how they would approach ethical dilemmas, you could have them apply that, but it's not about. the legalese, it's not about
Cindy:
No.
What’s future shock? (7:39)
Kimberly Mitchell:
knowledge, it's about coming to it from a completely different place of understanding where we're going in the future and getting our, and this is actually really relevant right now because I think, have you ever heard the term future shock?
Cindy:
No, but I'd like
Kimberly Mitchell:
Okay.
Cindy:
for you to explain it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Future shock is, was a term developed by, um, I know Charles Weingartner who wrote teaching as a subversive activity. This is 1968, 1969, 1970, when a lot of things were happening, right? Cultural revolutions in the US. And these thinkers, I mean, education philosophers, they call themselves said, here's the thing. Um, people have a strong, it's very difficult for humans to integrate everything that's changing in this world right now. It's a lot, right?
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And so you can shock people. It's the shattering stress and disorientation that we induce on individuals by subjecting them to too much change in too short of a time. And
Cindy:
Hashtag
Kimberly Mitchell:
so
Cindy:
COVID.
Kimberly Mitchell:
like COVID, right? And so what happens is you have this paralysis that takes place and school leaders know this, right? There's a paralysis if there's too much at once and the rapid changes. And so what we need to do is to breathe in some spaces for people to just sit with it a little bit and get
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
an understanding of it before solving or fixing. And
Cindy:
I like
Kimberly Mitchell:
so
Cindy:
that.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I would say, Yeah, if you're a school leader, get on the Ethics Bowl website and look at some case studies, download them and share them with staff and have them practice raising ethical questions and then they can do them with students.
Refuse to be sent to war (9:39)
Cindy:
That's very, it's a very cool use case. It reminds me of a quote that you said in one of our past conversations that I feel like has just got stuck in my head and I reference it a lot. But you talked about how we should never be sent to war and that the more informed we are, the more research that we have on our side, the more perspectives we can take, the less inclined we are to be sent to war for what we believe. And so it's almost like we're. By doing it in this way, we're able to take that circle of viewpoints, circle of perspectives, and consider all sides before we start saying what we believe in getting entrenched in it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, actually that is Kath Murdoch. That's Kath Murdoch quote. And she, if I remember correctly, she posted something and got some pushback and wrote another blog post that was beautiful about how this isn't about going to war. This is about, you know, again, expanding the conversation, understanding. So yeah, to me, it just means like we need to slow down. give people some time because I think there's a lot of reactionary responses. And I think, um, in, in many cultures, Western cultures, especially those of us who work in schools with, um, socially mobile families, there's all, there's a race, right. And race begets reaction, quick reaction. And so we just need to slow it down and get a better understanding. And like you say, taking more perspectives and philosophy. for me, gives us that opportunity.
Cindy:
I can see the application in a lot of things. So if I'm creating a new policy, if I'm making a school-wide decision as a leader, rather than just making these decisions or creating these policies, this might be a cool way to open up more thoughtful dialogue, like starting with a case study.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I do, you know, at the beginning of a school year with staff and students, just talking about norms, right? Setting norms for discussions. Instead of saying, okay, let's all get together in groups and think of the things that are important, another approach would be, let's look at a case study. Let's look at a real story. Talk about what you would do in this situation. It's coming at things a little bit more creatively. Or here's another one. And this is another website that I think school leaders should bookmark. It's liberating structures. And they have a list of 33 different conversational structures that they can use. It's, it's designed actually for the corporate world and for nonprofits with adults, adult learning. And one of them is called heard, seen, respected. Can you imagine at the beginning of a school year, as a school leader, having your teachers go one to one pair up with one person. ideally someone they don't know very well, knee to knee tell each other about a time when they felt they were not heard, seen and respected. And after, and the purpose of this is not to fix them or make them feel better or it's just to listen. And once you hear someone's story about that time, you become acutely aware about what you should avoid doing as someone in conversation.
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That to me is the best way to establish norms because then you're creating authentic empathy based on real stories. So yeah, I think, I mean, I think making better use of the staff meeting and I think thinking about, and I know we'll probably get into this, how do we as leaders model inquiry-based practices?
The origins of Kim’s Inquiry 5 (13:21)
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
This is what I'm talking about, making use of every opportunity, the staff meeting, the parent meeting, the one-on-ones, the committee meetings, every opportunity to model creative thinking and inquiry-based practices.
Cindy:
That's so much of what I love about your work is that I think a lot of the big misconception around inquiry-based learning is that it's something I do in my classroom. It's a type of way I organize my lesson plans or it's the thing that I'm teaching. And I think what you help people to see is that inquiry is a stance. It's a way of being and relating to others. And there's so much capacity for growth in that. So might we pivot to talk about your inquiry five and how you build those cultures of inquiry.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, yes, it is a stance. It is a disposition, as Trevor McKenzie will say, a mindset, right?
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And that's why it's so hard to actually do, because it's not a step-by-step process, right? If
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's a disposition, it's a set of beliefs that undergird what you're doing. How did I come up with those Inquiry Five? Okay, 30 years of watching inquiry-based teachers. is really my answer. And then just tons of reading and studying and reading transcripts and listening to others who have come before me. And there are many, right? But I would say... The moment where I realized I have to give teachers and leaders more than just, oh, it's a stance and it's, you know, these esoteric, you know, you have to like, give something that people can hold on to and move with initially some
Cindy:
Hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
structure. I was challenged. This was a long time ago in the late nineties. I went, I was working with international baccalaureate and I went to a school and I said, you know, the foundational pedagogy of IB schools is inquiry. And I remember it was a woman, a teacher in the back row just raised her hand and said, I don't know what you're talking about. Show us what you mean.
Cindy:
Awesome.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right? Awesome. And terrifying.
Cindy:
Haha yeah!
Kimberly Mitchell:
I need to put my money where my mouth is. I need to come back to the school. I need a model inquiry. And I did. I went back to that school and I went to... classrooms with teachers watching me and tried to implement an
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
inquiry lesson with their students whoo And I'm pretty sure it wasn't Beautiful. It was probably you know There are moments of beauty and there is moments of it going sideways But they so respected me being willing to try it out with them. What
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
happened after that was this? bubbling up these conversations with teachers who watch, saying, I noticed this, this kept happening. I noticed this was your reaction. And so what I tried to do is distill those things that you see no matter what grade level, no matter what subject, what are the things we see happening in the best inquiry classrooms?
Cindy:
Ooh, okay.
The Inquiry 5 (14:21)
Kimberly Mitchell:
So the first two are dispositions. They're definitely mindsets. The first is that you have a belief that it's a relationship. You need to get personal. Right?
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That knowing students and having them know each other, and then all of you having a relationship with the content is really, really important.
Cindy:
And what has been the biggest game changer for that? Because for me, that was the aha was, oh, I'm a learner and I'm applying the IB framework in the world around me and it like flipped the switch. But is there a way that leaders can either model or is there a practice they can promote that really gets people personal quickly?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, I would say start with routines and structures. So you might even like, there's one that I came across recently, it's called the daily dedication. And it's just a routine where you as a principal can do this in a staff meeting. You could say I'm gonna dedicate this workshop to my late grandfather, you know, Earl P. Lashaw III, who, you know, and you tell a story, a personal story. And then you pass the baton to another staff member for the next staff meeting. And people get
Cindy:
Wow, okay.
Kimberly Mitchell:
to know a little bit about that person. That's a really great routine. Teachers do that with students in classrooms and then students get to know each other. I would say, and I would be curious what you think Cindy, but I think part of this is getting at vulnerability.
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
It's just saying I am, I'm a human being. I am a leader. I can be decisive. I do have some power and authority, but I'm human. And I, I still have questions too. So how do you balance that?
Cindy:
which is the theme that has come up again and again in these conversations. It's just, that is how we lead now. There is not this sense of, I am the leader, so I know. If you've got that, get rid of it. It's not helping you, it's not helping your team. The more that you can embrace those pieces of yourself that you are nervous about, the things you are growing in, oh, it's just, it's so much more authentic.
Kimberly Mitchell:
For sure, crying, authentic tears, being
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
vulnerable, being emotional. Now here's the thing, we don't really have good political models for this. We live at a time where our leader models, political leaders are not doing this. And so we as educators have to do it instead.
Cindy:
I love that. We are teaching our kids how to be people. They're seeing us as a model of humanity.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
So how do we bring all of ourselves, all of those pieces, even the sticky ones into the classroom?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. And that leads us to the second disposition, which is staying curious. So if you're willing to be vulnerable, you're also willing to be wrong or to not know. Now, I would never say, as teachers, we should go into a lesson not knowing things. That's irresponsible. There's a certain curriculum that we need to help uncover. We need to know it deeply. On the other hand, I think it's such a missed opportunity not to share with people what questions are still outstanding for us and for
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
the world. What are the mysteries? What are we still grappling with? And that makes them excited because
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
we are excited. It's not just something we're transferring to them. So, you know, I teach comparative international education and I'm still wondering about, you know, what are the... politics around getting students to ask questions in certain countries and What? What are the impacts of large class sizes on student accountability and responsibility?
Cindy:
Guess.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I Mean there's just tons of questions. I still have and so when my students hear me they know that there's this is not a fixed Body of knowledge that they must memorize. This is something that is evolving and moving and organic and exciting So that brings a lot more joy to it. And I think it
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
makes leaders and teachers more accessible.
Cindy:
And that's where the play comes in, like curiosity and play and flow come from that space. Like my new burning question is, where do the have to's come from? Like every leader you talk to says, oh, well, we have to. Where do those come from and who's making those? And how do I talk to them?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, I mean, imagine like when I was a principal, I remember staff meetings where I would get nervous like I know I'm going to get some tough questions and I know who they're going to come from. What if I got ahead of that? What if I came into the meeting with my own questions or with their questions already in mind instead of feeling like I have to, you know, I had my back against the wall and had to defend?
Cindy:
Yeah, refuse
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
to be sent to war, I love it.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Refused to be sent to war. Yes, Kath Murdock had to So those are the two, you know Sort of dispositional things that bubble up in inquiry classrooms that you know, it's called the inquiry five Why because it's much easier to remember five things and not ten The last three are Asmore talk less right encourage evidence especially important in this day and age with so much information of
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
varying quality and Finally extend thinking time which is to be honest with you Cindy. I Still have a really hard time doing because
Cindy:
Same.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I talk fast I move fast. I mean, I feel like it's just being Raised in schools spending my entire career inside these schools where the pace is frenetic
Cindy:
There's so much on the plate. The plate has stayed the same size. We just keep adding more on to it, but we still have the same amount of time in the day. So how do we do that? How do we make more think time when there is so much going on?
Kimberly Mitchell:
you know, again, like I'm still working on that. I think you have to make choices. You have to know what's important and what's not important and let some things go.
Cindy:
tricky, tricky stuff.
Kimberly Mitchell:
very tricky.
Using data to inform an inquiry (23:19)
Cindy:
I think a lot of our audience will be interested in the data point. So can you talk a little bit more about that of how we can use data in joyous ways, in life-bringing ways, in valuable ways that grow our practice versus shut kids down and shut learning down?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, I actually, I'm looking at my screen because I wrote some ideas down for this. I mean, here's the thing. Data can be really exciting and it can be really exciting to collect it.
Cindy:
It's good.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I think the first thing that I think about is when it's right to collect data, like who drives that data collection? I think it should always be the person who is asking for it, we should wait for them. I think it's hard to force people to take in feedback when they're not ready and to give
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
them data when they're not ready. So everything I say would be like ready the environment for it, for someone to be able to listen. So I like the idea of asking teachers, what are you curious about in your classroom? So if a teacher says, I'm just wondering like, are, why are these five students never talking and these six students always talking? And am I right? Is my perception correct? And going from there and determining, form follows function, then
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
what kinds of data collection needs to happen? Well, maybe I could come into your classroom and just record who's talking and what they're saying, or maybe you could have a student do
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that. So soliciting help, from teachers to come in and take notes and observe or to record. And I think the other thing is don't be afraid to ask your students. And for teachers, for principals, don't be afraid to ask your teachers what's working, what's not. So in my book, you know, I have surveys that you can reproduce and give to students and teachers about how am I doing on these sort of inquiry based points. Right? Am I modeling asking more and talking less? How can I do better? That's a brave thing to do is to really actively solicit information from your staff about how you're doing. I know that schools sometimes have that already in place, but I think you could do it on another level. I think
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you could ask more specific inquiry-based questions about how you're doing.
Cindy:
I think I'm hearing that we almost want schools just to be these giant workshops of creativity and of inquiry and that everything that we're doing in a school should be driven by someone's wondering as opposed to
Kimberly Mitchell:
Beautiful.
Cindy:
a system or a metric. Is that?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I think that's a beautiful vision. Yes, absolutely. And we're not there in most schools yet. And I understand
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
why there's a lot of tension, there's a lot of compliance, there are a lot of rules in place that make it challenging. But here's the other thing. I think there's one of the biggest misconceptions about inquiry is that you do it all the time. It's all inquiry all the time. And I think that's a huge... not only misconception, but a burden on teachers who feel like, well, wait a minute. I have things that I need. What about the phonics? What about the math
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that needs to happen? What about I'm teaching a world language? We need to balance this out. There is a time and a place for direct instruction, a good lecture, some memorization.
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And it's the same with leaders and staff. There's a time when they need direct information. They don't need a leader to say, well, what do you think? You
Cindy:
Let's
Kimberly Mitchell:
know,
Cindy:
inquire into this.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that gets so annoying, right? So it's the balance. And that's part of the tension. And that's what makes us a profession and not a job, because it's an art form, not
Cindy:
Mmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just science. It's an art doing
Cindy:
It
Kimberly Mitchell:
that.
Cindy:
made me think of a story from my classroom. So I taught grade five, and we were studying multiple digit multiplication, a skill most fifth graders should have when they come to fifth grade. And I think this is a perfect example of where inquiry gets in the way, is I talked to my kids and said, okay, let's do a pre-assessment, multiply these numbers for me. And I saw beautiful strategies. Every kid had a different strategy. Every kid could explain their thinking and why, but every kid got the answer wrong. None of them could appropriately do it. So it's one thing to say we need to have space for creativity and strategies and sharing our thinking. And also, you need to be able to actually do the thing. So
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes,
Cindy:
it's a tension
Kimberly Mitchell:
yes.
Cindy:
for sure.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes, we need grist for the mill, a
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
very old fashioned way of saying that. We need them to know some things in order to play, right?
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Like you mentioned, play, play is so important. And as we play, we need to develop skills to make the play more exciting.
Cindy:
Yeah.
Balancing the “have tos” (28:26)
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, so it is a balance. And I think that's a misconception we need to really continue to talk about. people to go easy on themselves. There's so much pressure. Oh, I have to do this in an inquiry-based way. You can take a break. You can balance. Remember that there's a time and a place for everything.
Cindy:
love to see more work in doing that, that work of sorting. What is the must in our curriculum? Because if your must in your curriculum is 90% of the time, there isn't space for inquiry and depth and understanding. Can we whittle that down to a %, 30% must that leaves space for that? Because if not, then it's an unfair ask. If we're saying that 90% of what you need to know is a
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, yeah.
Cindy:
then we're at odds there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
That'll be a great conversation to have in with teams or, you know, also in my book, I have teachers write down in 15 minutes all their curriculum. What are the concepts you have to teach in the year?
Cindy:
Ooh.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. It's an impossible ask and that's the
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
right. But what, what, what you notice when you ask people to do that is they distill automatically. What they think is most important. Imagine as a principal negotiating with teachers, looking at what they write. And then, you know, like Heidi Hayes-Jacobs, putting it all on a wall and looking at where we have, you know, repeats, overlaps, are there places we can let go and reinforce? I think that that would be a really good exercise. But the only thing that I would say with that, as I think about it, is that we tend to put a lot of attention on the curriculum, what we need to teach, the what, and we don't talk about the how as much as we need to. the instructional
Cindy:
Hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
point, the pedagogy, so important. And that's why, you know, that's why I really love how Tottle shines a light on that part of this practice. Because what platforms like Tottle do for us is they give us the structure so that we can attend more to the pedagogy. This art and science is craft of the
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
delivering of the curriculum. without constantly circling around curriculum and assessment,
Cindy:
What?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I would say. Spend
Cindy:
Right.
Kimberly Mitchell:
a lot of time there, maybe a little too much time.
Cindy:
Yeah, that was a big aha for me as an educator, I think. Was the success criteria a bit of breaking down explicit knowledge versus understanding and skills? Because when you have your curriculum laid out in that way, you can see the flexibility, especially
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
in understanding and skills. Oh, these are all the things we can do, and you don't just get bogged down by all that content.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, right. That's another thing that Kath Murdoch will say is just know your curriculum so that you can get it out of the way. You can play, you can dance, you can connect things and you can understand like, okay, check. We got that down. It doesn't need to be a discrete lesson because I know we just had this experience. Being really, yeah, getting ahead of your curriculum.
Cindy:
So leaders make time for this, I think, is what we're getting at, is that if we want inquiry to happen, it needs space and it needs time. And if you're feeling jammed and bombarded by a million different things, you're not gonna have the space and time. So what is worth knowing? What is worth exploring? What is worth puzzling?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, yeah. And that it goes back to that future shock. You don't want teachers to have future shock because that's paralysis. And that's when people dig into traditional what they feel comfortable with. Right.
Cindy:
Makes a lot of sense.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Okay, I think that's a beautiful spot to pause. So Kim, I have a set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show. So are you ready for our final three? Okay,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Sure.
School Leaders’ Countdown: The Final 3! (32:25)
Cindy:
so question number one is, what is the book that you've read that's had the most profound impact on your practice? So Kim, I have a set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show. So are you ready for our final three? Okay, so question number one is, what is the book that you've read
Kimberly Mitchell:
Mmm. Well, I think it's the book I already mentioned, Teaching as a Subversive Activity by Charles Weingartner and Neil Postman. And it was written in the late 60s. And it just, it's a radical book about how we should change education.
Cindy:
And do you think any of those changes have happened or are happening? Or do you think we still have quite a ways
Kimberly Mitchell:
In
Cindy:
to go?
Kimberly Mitchell:
this wonderful community of inquiry and instruction and play-based instruction and concept-based and project-based, yes, absolutely. Has it filtered to the majority of schools on this planet yet? No,
Cindy:
Not yet.
Kimberly Mitchell:
not yet. Not yet. And this is a book that was written a long time ago. So we're still working on it. Old habits really die hard. And I would say the other misconception with inquiry is that these practices won't prepare students for the future. Or
Cindy:
Come
Kimberly Mitchell:
let's
Cindy:
on.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just be more explicit. This is, this is as a parent, I can, I know the talk. These practices won't get students into the right colleges because they won't have the test scores. They won't have the knowledge base and then they won't get into good jobs for the future. But we know that's wrong. We know
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
that companies are seeking the very students that come from inquiry-based environments. We want
Cindy:
Mmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
question askers. We want people who are very creative. We want people who are emotive, right?
Cindy:
collaborative.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Who offer some collaborative, who offer something that AI cannot. Boy, it's, it's a new world. So inquiry. and philosophical thinking, they provide those skills for students. And if you notice, you know, the economy is driving what the corporations need from workers, which drives what colleges are asking for from K-12. And I know as someone who coaches students with inquiry to go to college, that colleges are looking for students that are, that go way beyond the test score and the grades. Yes, that's still an important thing, but they want a different narrative. They want students who are leaders, who are collaborative, who are creative, who are critical thinkers. In the United States, most universities and colleges have already gone test optional. So they are not even looking at test scores anymore.
Cindy:
Thank you! Because it's just a socioeconomic ranking, like let's get real here.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right, right. So anyway, that's just another plug for what we're doing. This is the direction we need to head.
Cindy:
I think is cool is that AI might be like, like what COVID did for tech skills for teachers, I think AI might do that for inquiry because it's asked, everyone is asking the question is what is the value that I add as a human?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Because between Google and AI,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
if I don't have personal interests, curiosities, wonderings, empathy, I don't bring a lot to the table anymore.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, that's right. What makes us human? That is the big question. Yeah, uniquely
Cindy:
I can't,
Kimberly Mitchell:
human.
Cindy:
I'm excited. Can this please light a fire and like make bigger changes?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes,
Cindy:
Can we lead this revolution, please?
Kimberly Mitchell:
yes. And the revolution, again, like go to that book, read that book if you haven't read it before. Is it a little bit antiquated in its language? Yes, but it is, you know, the cover is an apple with like a fuse. It's like, let's think expansively. Let's blow up this old system and re-conceive it.
Cindy:
Okay, it might be time for me to read this.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And
Cindy:
I'm feeling like, feeling
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's really
Cindy:
all fiery.
Kimberly Mitchell:
good. It's really good.
Cindy:
Awesome. Okay, question number two. This is my personal research question that I'm like pretty jazzed about right now, is that I find in leadership of all kinds, there tends to be kind of two different camps, right? There's, we need to perform, we need the metrics we need to deliver. And then there tends to be more of this like sustainable, we need to grow people and make sure that it's a joyous space. So, How do we find this balance in workplaces where they're both joy bringing and life bringing, but also are performing and meeting the needs that we see? What are the keys to that? You think?
Kimberly Mitchell:
You know, not to skirt the issue, but I really do believe it comes down to grounding ourselves in why we're doing what we're doing. And that means getting clear on our core beliefs and values. And
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
talking about that over and over again, all the time and what it looks like and giving examples. Um, I have to do that with the work I do. I, every year I go through my, my beliefs and my values. So for an example. I believe that asking great questions is at the heart of solving our world's most pressing problems.
Cindy:
beautiful.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I believe that teachers are uniquely positioned to promote freedom and a more just society. And I believe that teaching is a team sport. and that we need each other, right? And my core values, and I want to give credit to Trevor McKenzie and Kath Murdoch because the three of us, when we started working together, I remember in one conversation Trevor said, well, these are my core values. Kath and I looked at each other like,
Cindy:
Huh?
Kimberly Mitchell:
we don't have that clearly articulated and that is really key. And this is not like those endless mission and vision statement conversations,
Cindy:
No.
Kimberly Mitchell:
okay? Like those just... I mean, how many of us have spent hours talking about that? It's just really getting to the core of who we are and what we believe,
Cindy:
personal values.
Kimberly Mitchell:
personal, right? So for me, it's connection, it's vulnerability, it's understanding, tenacity and trust. Like I have those on my website. I even have
Cindy:
They're
Kimberly Mitchell:
like,
Cindy:
there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
yeah, a little bit more context about why these are my core values. And you know what? Next year, they may change. I'll keep revisiting them. over and over again. But when the going gets tough, the tough get curious and it will get tough. Schools are, there's always gonna be something happening whether it's a pandemic or AI or an angry parent. And so when we have that touchstone of our beliefs and values, it makes it easier to make decisions. Will we make
Cindy:
To
Kimberly Mitchell:
perfect
Cindy:
sort.
Kimberly Mitchell:
decisions to sort? How do we make joyous places like beyond that? So if I believe that teaching is a teen sport, then I provide time for my teachers to get together.
Cindy:
Time.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And
Cindy:
Time and values are themes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I give them a voucher to have a drink together once a month.
Cindy:
Nice.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. So putting your beliefs into actions. If I believe that asking great questions are important, then I, as a leader, ask great questions and I help my teachers ask great questions. I don't
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just provide answers at the staff meeting. I ask questions. So it's again, looking at all of our beliefs and values and saying that how does that manifest? day to day. Be explicit. Be clear.
Cindy:
Yeah. Remind me to send you, I created this system of journaling. It's like a daily way to reflect on your values that I found to be pretty transformative.
Kimberly Mitchell:
No.
Cindy:
But I wonder, do you have other tools that help leaders to identify those values and beliefs that you've created or that you've used?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I have a, I use Brene Brown's list of core values.
Cindy:
O-F-R-E-N-A-Y.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And then I have people pick 10 from the list and they can obviously they add more to the list.
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And then I have them continue to distill until they're usually about five. And then I asked them about the story that undergirds that belief system. Tell me a story about a time
Cindy:
Oh.
Kimberly Mitchell:
when that belief was an action for you. And then you can future focus. How might this show up? So
Cindy:
Nice.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I start with a list because it just provides some structure
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
around talking about that.
Cindy:
Do you have that process outlined anywhere that we could share in show notes
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah,
Cindy:
or
Kimberly Mitchell:
absolutely.
Cindy:
yeah?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
Okay,
Kimberly Mitchell:
That's
Cindy:
guys,
Kimberly Mitchell:
what we
Cindy:
we'll
Kimberly Mitchell:
do
Cindy:
put
Kimberly Mitchell:
in
Cindy:
that in show
Kimberly Mitchell:
college
Cindy:
notes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
coaching with my students is that I run them through the core values part. I also do something called Johari window, which is a way of getting people to understand how they perceive themselves and how others perceive them. So they get a list of 56 adjectives. They pick the five that they think represents them as a person most. And then they ask a few people to also weigh in and pick the five. And they look for, you know, where there's agreement, where there are blind spots, what people are saying that don't show up on your list. And so
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's, it's a great way to understand how you show up for other people.
Cindy:
And as a leader to do that anonymously would be very cool and get
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
like a word cloud of how people perceive you. Woof! That would be insightful.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I'll sign you for the show notes, the Johari window, the modified Johari window too.
Cindy:
Cool. Okay, lots of fun resources to dig into. Okay, final question for you. You have worked with schools around the world, you've written books on Inquiry, you've been in so many classrooms. If you could stand up on a stage and talk to every leader in the world and give them one piece of advice that you think would just be revolutionary, what would be your one
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh
Cindy:
piece
Kimberly Mitchell:
my
Cindy:
of advice?
Kimberly Mitchell:
gosh.
Cindy:
No pressure.
Kimberly Mitchell:
One piece of advice. I would say get enough sleep. This job is hard. Make sure you get your sleep. I mean, really take care of your physical. And we're talking about sustaining energy over time. We live in a physical body, and when that physical body is not rested, it's hard to be patient with people, it's hard to be empathetic, and it's hard to lead.
Cindy:
I love that. I'm a nine hour a night kind of gal myself,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Me too.
Cindy:
so.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Me too. So, I mean, it's a kind of a, it's more of a euphemism for take care of yourself. So you care
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
of others, right? But sleep to me is really important.
Cindy:
pivotal. And if you don't prioritize it, if you don't prioritize sleep, everything else, like you said, it kind of is a slippery slope from there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy:
Amazing. Well, Kim, I just always have such a fun time talking with you. I like I almost forgot we were recording.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I know,
Cindy:
It
Kimberly Mitchell:
me
Cindy:
was
Kimberly Mitchell:
too, me too. Cindy,
Cindy:
such a
Kimberly Mitchell:
thank
Cindy:
blast.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you so much. Always a pleasure.
Cindy:
Such a pleasure, thanks for being on.
I think is cool is that AI might be like, like what COVID did for tech skills for teachers, I think AI might do that for inquiry because it's asked, everyone is asking the question is what is the value that I add as a human?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Because between Google and AI,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
if I don't have personal interests, curiosities, wonderings, empathy, I don't bring a lot to the table anymore.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah, that's right. What makes us human? That is the big question. Yeah, uniquely
Cindy:
I can't,
Kimberly Mitchell:
human.
Cindy:
I'm excited. Can this please light a fire and like make bigger changes?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes,
Cindy:
Can we lead this revolution, please?
Kimberly Mitchell:
yes. And the revolution, again, like go to that book, read that book if you haven't read it before. Is it a little bit antiquated in its language? Yes, but it is, you know, the cover is an apple with like a fuse. It's like, let's think expansively. Let's blow up this old system and re-conceive it.
Cindy:
Okay, it might be time for me to read this.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And
Cindy:
I'm feeling like, feeling
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's really
Cindy:
all fiery.
Kimberly Mitchell:
good. It's really good.
Cindy:
Awesome. Okay, question number two. This is my personal research question that I'm like pretty jazzed about right now, is that I find in leadership of all kinds, there tends to be kind of two different camps, right? There's, we need to perform, we need the metrics we need to deliver. And then there tends to be more of this like sustainable, we need to grow people and make sure that it's a joyous space. So, How do we find this balance in workplaces where they're both joy bringing and life bringing, but also are performing and meeting the needs that we see? What are the keys to that? You think?
Kimberly Mitchell:
You know, not to skirt the issue, but I really do believe it comes down to grounding ourselves in why we're doing what we're doing. And that means getting clear on our core beliefs and values. And
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
talking about that over and over again, all the time and what it looks like and giving examples. Um, I have to do that with the work I do. I, every year I go through my, my beliefs and my values. So for an example. I believe that asking great questions is at the heart of solving our world's most pressing problems.
Cindy:
beautiful.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I believe that teachers are uniquely positioned to promote freedom and a more just society. And I believe that teaching is a team sport. and that we need each other, right? And my core values, and I want to give credit to Trevor McKenzie and Kath Murdoch because the three of us, when we started working together, I remember in one conversation Trevor said, well, these are my core values. Kath and I looked at each other like,
Cindy:
Huh?
Kimberly Mitchell:
we don't have that clearly articulated and that is really key. And this is not like those endless mission and vision statement conversations,
Cindy:
No.
Kimberly Mitchell:
okay? Like those just... I mean, how many of us have spent hours talking about that? It's just really getting to the core of who we are and what we believe,
Cindy:
personal values.
Kimberly Mitchell:
personal, right? So for me, it's connection, it's vulnerability, it's understanding, tenacity and trust. Like I have those on my website. I even have
Cindy:
They're
Kimberly Mitchell:
like,
Cindy:
there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
yeah, a little bit more context about why these are my core values. And you know what? Next year, they may change. I'll keep revisiting them. over and over again. But when the going gets tough, the tough get curious and it will get tough. Schools are, there's always gonna be something happening whether it's a pandemic or AI or an angry parent. And so when we have that touchstone of our beliefs and values, it makes it easier to make decisions. Will we make
Cindy:
To
Kimberly Mitchell:
perfect
Cindy:
sort.
Kimberly Mitchell:
decisions to sort? How do we make joyous places like beyond that? So if I believe that teaching is a teen sport, then I provide time for my teachers to get together.
Cindy:
Time.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And
Cindy:
Time and values are themes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I give them a voucher to have a drink together once a month.
Cindy:
Nice.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. So putting your beliefs into actions. If I believe that asking great questions are important, then I, as a leader, ask great questions and I help my teachers ask great questions. I don't
Cindy:
Mm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
just provide answers at the staff meeting. I ask questions. So it's again, looking at all of our beliefs and values and saying that how does that manifest? day to day. Be explicit. Be clear.
Cindy:
Yeah. Remind me to send you, I created this system of journaling. It's like a daily way to reflect on your values that I found to be pretty transformative.
Kimberly Mitchell:
No.
Cindy:
But I wonder, do you have other tools that help leaders to identify those values and beliefs that you've created or that you've used?
Kimberly Mitchell:
I have a, I use Brene Brown's list of core values.
Cindy:
O-F-R-E-N-A-Y.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And then I have people pick 10 from the list and they can obviously they add more to the list.
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Kimberly Mitchell:
And then I have them continue to distill until they're usually about five. And then I asked them about the story that undergirds that belief system. Tell me a story about a time
Cindy:
Oh.
Kimberly Mitchell:
when that belief was an action for you. And then you can future focus. How might this show up? So
Cindy:
Nice.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I start with a list because it just provides some structure
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
around talking about that.
Cindy:
Do you have that process outlined anywhere that we could share in show notes
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yeah,
Cindy:
or
Kimberly Mitchell:
absolutely.
Cindy:
yeah?
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
Okay,
Kimberly Mitchell:
That's
Cindy:
guys,
Kimberly Mitchell:
what we
Cindy:
we'll
Kimberly Mitchell:
do
Cindy:
put
Kimberly Mitchell:
in
Cindy:
that in show
Kimberly Mitchell:
college
Cindy:
notes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
coaching with my students is that I run them through the core values part. I also do something called Johari window, which is a way of getting people to understand how they perceive themselves and how others perceive them. So they get a list of 56 adjectives. They pick the five that they think represents them as a person most. And then they ask a few people to also weigh in and pick the five. And they look for, you know, where there's agreement, where there are blind spots, what people are saying that don't show up on your list. And so
Cindy:
Yes.
Kimberly Mitchell:
it's, it's a great way to understand how you show up for other people.
Cindy:
And as a leader to do that anonymously would be very cool and get
Kimberly Mitchell:
Yes.
Cindy:
like a word cloud of how people perceive you. Woof! That would be insightful.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I'll sign you for the show notes, the Johari window, the modified Johari window too.
Cindy:
Cool. Okay, lots of fun resources to dig into. Okay, final question for you. You have worked with schools around the world, you've written books on Inquiry, you've been in so many classrooms. If you could stand up on a stage and talk to every leader in the world and give them one piece of advice that you think would just be revolutionary, what would be your one
Kimberly Mitchell:
Oh
Cindy:
piece
Kimberly Mitchell:
my
Cindy:
of advice?
Kimberly Mitchell:
gosh.
Cindy:
No pressure.
Kimberly Mitchell:
One piece of advice. I would say get enough sleep. This job is hard. Make sure you get your sleep. I mean, really take care of your physical. And we're talking about sustaining energy over time. We live in a physical body, and when that physical body is not rested, it's hard to be patient with people, it's hard to be empathetic, and it's hard to lead.
Cindy:
I love that. I'm a nine hour a night kind of gal myself,
Kimberly Mitchell:
Me too.
Cindy:
so.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Me too. So, I mean, it's a kind of a, it's more of a euphemism for take care of yourself. So you care
Cindy:
Yeah.
Kimberly Mitchell:
of others, right? But sleep to me is really important.
Cindy:
pivotal. And if you don't prioritize it, if you don't prioritize sleep, everything else, like you said, it kind of is a slippery slope from there.
Kimberly Mitchell:
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Cindy:
Amazing. Well, Kim, I just always have such a fun time talking with you. I like I almost forgot we were recording.
Kimberly Mitchell:
I know,
Cindy:
It
Kimberly Mitchell:
me
Cindy:
was
Kimberly Mitchell:
too, me too. Cindy,
Cindy:
such a
Kimberly Mitchell:
thank
Cindy:
blast.
Kimberly Mitchell:
you so much. Always a pleasure.
Cindy:
Such a pleasure, thanks for being on.
