Introduction (01:52)
Cindy:
Thanks so much for being here, Heidi.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh, it's always a pleasure to talk with you.
Cindy:
So for anyone who's been living under a rock and doesn't know who you are, can you kind of set the stage for us? What is the work you do that you are most passionate about?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh, boy, that is that is a really good question. I am really fortunate because I have a career that continues for me to just grow and give opportunities. But I've always been fascinated with the choices behind curriculum design. My first work started with interdisciplinarity. My first book was on that and that then I started to take a look at vertical issues. I thought there was very weak articulation, and also just the way curriculum was written seemed kind of rubber stamp. And so I began this work on mapping and developed a model on it. And that has continued to spiral over time and with platforms, software platforms, all type of continued work. And that has led to the last maybe 15 years or so I'll work on the modernization question. Curriculum 21 came out, I wrote that and included some wonderful authors on how can we prepare kids moving into a new century. And then from there into digital media, global lyricists, then bold moves for schools, which is learning environments and everything from architectural spaces. And then right now, I'm really excited about storyboarding and also streamlining curriculum. So that's the thumbnail, pretty good thumbnail. Thank you.
Cindy:
I think of you as the queen of curriculum mapping and I'm a curriculum nerd myself. So I'm curious, like how did you get into curriculum mapping? Is it a skill set you've always had as just that vision or tell us a little bit more about that.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Very briefly, it was an epiphany. Early in my career, I had just received my doctorate from Columbia, from Teachers College, and was starting to do some work in addition to teaching some courses there in schools. And I started to notice something very peculiar. When I would start to ask about the curriculum, people sometimes, and to this day, you'll still see that. bring me a textbook and I'd go, but that's a book. That's what is it you actually do with that? I mean, it isn't actually written for your kids. And I thought there was some confusion between a program that can be a good spine, could be a reference tool, what was taught. And then when I probed further, what became clear to me was that between buildings or levels or divisions, no one was really clear about what was going on. There were assumptions being made. I might work in the morning in a primary program in the afternoon in an upper school, and the perception of what was actually happening was not clear, was not accurate. I had been with a group of fifth graders and with their teachers, and what maybe an eighth grade teacher thought was going on wasn't right. And remember, this was a time where there were binders. was an apt word because it was bound, shackled in folders with big rings. So curriculum couldn't be updated. So for me, it was beginning to sort of look at mapping a journey that could be responsive. And then, uh, sort of beautiful convergence of technology, platforms, better communication, and the model that I developed in mapping moved very quickly. into that arena so that we could have a kind of commonplace. But the origination of it was a very observable problem about the dearth and lack of good information and also who was putting it in, you know, who was inputting it.
Cindy:
I love that you bring that up because my first time in an IB school, I remember I showed up and I'm coming from Florida, very much the scripted curriculum. And that's what I thought. I thought, oh, the textbook is my curriculum and I don't have a textbook, so there's nothing I'm required to teach. I can teach anything I want. And it was through that process of discovering the standards and discovering that I was the agent of that, that I really became the owner of, I felt like a teacher for the first time.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah, I think one thing, you know, is a kind of tributary in the conversation that's important to note is now when we view curriculum, I would say the last generation of teachers views it much more from a design perspective. 30, 40 years ago, that just wasn't the case. It was more of a coverage model as opposed to an uncoverage or discovery model. You reference IB and I have worked with IB, the organization, and been fortunate enough to present many of their programs as an institution that has grown. And what's been fascinating is their view of curriculum is very much about inquiry, guided, directed, thoughtfully framed, so there's common values across their schools throughout the world. But no two IBs. classrooms are going to be absolutely identical. There are more phenomena based in certain ways, like your locality. I can see a primary school really investigating questions that are local, that are indicative of the issues in a community or the background and the nature of the people who live in a place. So some programs have kind of done the best of both in a way they've allowed for some continuity. the degree of consistency that's helpful for students, but the latitude to have thinking people and thinking teachers. So from my career point of view, I see that as quite unique and not widespread in a lot of other places in the world. And so it varies very much.
What is curriculum mapping? (08:58)
Cindy:
For our audience, might you just define once and for all, what is the curriculum, right? And what does it mean to map our curriculum? Just so we're all on the same page.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
The only thing I demand is for once and for all. And
Cindy:
Hahaha
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
one of the reasons I say that is I don't think curriculum should ever stand still. So even as I'm saying this, I hope there's someone listening in who is a leader in their 20s who will someday be speaking on it and they'll have a much better definition than I will. And I mean it. That's what it's all about. But having said that. I think curriculum, if we take the root word in Latin, which means of course to run in small steps, it's the design and choices in terms of the pathway you're laying out. And by the way, just because you buy a textbook doesn't mean the kids are gonna get it. So there's what I would call the projected curriculum, which is what we. anticipate or would like to have happen. And by the way, that doesn't have to be rigid. IB is a good point in that. It's a projected set of precepts and competencies and experiences, but it will unfold. Other programs are tight pacing guides, but it's projected. Then I would say there's the operational curriculum, what really happens. Any teacher who works in a school where they may have for fifth grade classes. Each one's different. And you can have the same guidelines, but kids are gonna do different things. You know, an interesting thing about children is they often ask questions. And so sometimes a teacher has laid something out and you start to shift to be in response to those questions. So curriculum is the projected pathway and it needs to be revisited and the choices deal with elements. We talk about those, right?
Cindy:
Please.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Okay. So if I were looking and you were, if I were an architect and you said, Heidi define what a blueprint is, and I said, it's a plan of choices. And as an architect, I will choose elements. I will choose the style, the scale, the materials. I'll make choices about details, connections between floors, what will go in the foundation. And I could choose a lot of different things, but there's restrictions. I have to deal with standards. So in curriculum design, you're making choices. You're making choices about what is essential and not essential, whether it will be an inquiry-oriented experience or a coverage experience. You're making choices about the content. And content, to me, is the hardest element because it's not just choosing what your students will experience. It's choosing what they want. You can't do everything. There's so much. You
Cindy:
This
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
know
Cindy:
is
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
what's happening? Knowledge is growing, even as we speak during this interview. So what's what's interesting is you're making choices about that. And then the proficiencies, the skills, the strategies that students need to develop, you're going to make choices about the evidence they'll produce. What will be the assessments and assessments really are demonstrations of learning. That's what they are. But I can choose one that's fairly low level. I can choose one that is expansive. I might need something small and granular. I might need a bigger performance, something more authentic. So it's a series of choices that lays out a blueprint and then you build it. And sometimes you have to make adjustments along the way. Finally, I think the thing about mapping that is important is it really is about the through line of the student's pathway over the course of say 14 to 12 years, whether you're a early childhood pre- K2 or your kindergarten up to graduation, it's year to year to year. And it also can be you're in a multi-grade school. So the lab is a little different, but it is over time. So it's these choices we make and how we communicate them cleanly and clearly that makes a big difference.
Cindy:
your metaphor there of the blueprint because it is so adaptable and it is something that, depending on resources or depending on experience, might need to be changed. And I think that's becoming more clear, I think, that it's not something that is set in stone. It's adaptable and flexible.
Curriculum Mapping as a Verb (13:51)
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
So let's go a little further with this. What I told you was part one of the definition. That's what maps are. Part two is that mapping is a verb. It's a review process. It goes right to what you were talking about, Cindy. I can honestly say to anyone listening to this podcast, having maps isn't gonna help you. Using them will help you. You know, it's the review process. It's maps need to continually be updated. And you know, we can review kids' performance and observe them and look at the products and demonstrations and look for gaps. Do you find a gap? You do gap analysis, then what do you do with it? In a way, your assessments are the basis for diagnosis. Your curriculum maps are the prescription. It's what you're giving them. It's the experiences you're giving them. whether they're part of the design or not. And so if there is a gap, you can go back through the mapping review process and make an adjustment in the maps. Curriculum should be responsive. I think that's really what I'm getting at. So it is curriculum mapping consists of maps, blueprints and the review process. So we're looking at that as well.
Cindy:
And if that's one takeaway people come away from this episode with, I think it should be that, that concept of it being a verb and not just a, a static
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah,
Cindy:
product.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
that
Cindy:
Beautiful.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
was great. I hope so.
Introducing Curriculum Storyboarding (15:23)
Cindy:
Yeah. So I'd love to pivot Heidi, because you are just putting out a new book. And this is a concept you and I have been kind of chewing on over the last year, I think.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah, yes.
Cindy:
And I'm so excited to get the chance to dig into it a little bit more, but it's the concept of creating a curriculum storyboard. versus a map. So might you differentiate for us
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Sure.
Cindy:
Storyboard with Maps?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Well, thank you. Yeah. Alison Zamoda, who is utterly brilliant. We have worked over the last three years. Actually, we worked through the pandemic and every morning at like 5 a.m. we would get up. It was really it was really a really a godsend in a lot of ways.
Cindy:
This is your
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
But
Cindy:
COVID baby.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
it is. That's right. I thought of that. That's right. We gave birth to COVID. And we had been working together for over 25 years. She's quite remarkable, to say the least. And we did not start off with this idea of storyboarding, but we were looking at the fact that we felt there was a problem with curriculum being burdensome. We felt like we were part of the problem in creating templates that were far too demanding and filling out forms that took out way too much time away from actually thinking about teaching and learning and how kids are spending time. And we wanted to work on streamlining. Streamlining was coming up. And so we thought that was a critical point. How do we cut out what's unnecessary? What
Cindy:
Yes.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
do we do that is essential? And what do we create to be responsive? So we worked on that. And then out of that, we realized, but wait a minute, there's a big problem with curriculum. And that is, it's not written. for the learners. Really is a, you know, standards are the most obtuse. They're totally bureaucratic. They're long lists. They're not even curriculum friendly, particularly. And we thought, everyone wants to be student friendly and student focused and center on engaging them. But if they aren't engaged in even understanding what the experiences are, it's problematic. So we started to work it through and the pandemic was instrumental. because so many students in United States were home because they were not allowed to go to schools. Many of you were saying, don't you understand that? And so what happened is the communication was very often very bad. Was apparent teachers would send home floods and then lesson plans and things like that. Nobody could make sense of it.
Cindy:
Mm.
Making Curriculum Student-Friendly (17:54)
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
So I started to work with some schools and I said, you know, it might be easier if we could sort of lay it out. And we could use icons and images, change the language so it's parent but really student-friendly. And let's take what you're doing, not dumb it down at all, but simplify the focus. And out of that work, and I won't go through the whole process, we figured out we went, we should be storyboarding it. And then that linked to another idea I want to share with you in a moment. But the... The concept was visualization of an image that gets at the essence or the icon that gets at the essence of what a unit is about, the focus of it written in student-friendly terms. We could include standards, we could include other pieces. And we literally laid out storyboard templates. It was incredibly effective. Parents really liked it. Teachers liked it. And here's what's been interesting. What's been interesting, going back to your first question, Cindy, is that schools now where I start with storyboarding and we move into mapping platforms, it's like butter. It's so easy, so much stronger. And what we've shifted is the style of language we use in curriculum maps altogether and in using a storyboard. So that's kind of the origin of it. And
Cindy:
Okay.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I can tell you more in a moment.
Cindy:
Yeah, I'd love to hear more because one of the words that stood out to me in your initial description was this idea of a through line. And I learned that concept from a book, Talk Like Ted, or one of those Ted Ed books, of when you're writing a speech, having that main idea that you're always touching back to. So when you're storyboarding, is that kind of the point as well that you have that through line or how does that all work?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I don't know if we honestly, anybody listening, we didn't set this up in advance. I'm just telling you. But if I wanted to set up, you just gave me a boot. That was great. Um, here's the way I look at it. I'm going to take it slightly different angle, but build on very much what you're talking about. For years when I was a professor and, uh, on the faculty teaching some courses at Columbia, the teachers college here in New York. Um, I often would call all my students who were signed up for curriculum design, I said, you're actually in a creative writing class. And what I really felt, and what was the seed of this for me was that curriculum really should be written as a narrative. So it's not only, it's building very much on what you said, but it's that when you write a narrative. You're thinking about the setting. You're thinking about the story arc. You're thinking about the characters or what's in the foreground. You're thinking about the genre. Should it be memoir? Should it be short story? It matters. And you're also looking at having the through line, the connection, is that there are deliberate connections all the way through. Allison really, you know, the two of us really felt strongly about the narrative and are literally have set up our book using that format. The book itself is going to look very different to people because we've actually storyboarded the book too. So it's quite exciting to look at. And what you see though is that I've come now to realize. Okay. In my career, I have do-overs, things I wish I could do over. This is up there. What I realized is that I created and contributed to a problem. And that is now when I look at maps, I see really well-designed units. I tried to help people do it. But they are unit silos, Cindy. They stand alone. We think kids will see the connections. We hope they do. but it has not been deliberate enough. So just like when you were saying, you go back to your theme or however you wanna reference it, that's true. And the one thing about writing curriculum, it's a little bit different, but very much related is, we should not assume that students see why a specific unit is following. And guess why we don't do it sometimes? Because we're not clear. The other thing is, Textbook companies are not always so good at this. I have worked in the textbook industry. You can go look it up. You'll see a lot of textbooks I've worked on. I would say there's a lot of chapter siloing that we don't see those connections. So storyboarding is absolutely the deliberate connections. And more importantly, the prompts to get students to see connections.
Cindy:
telling it.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Exactly. but also finding things we're missing. So it's invitational. We want them to co-create with us in a way, to collaborate on making meaning. You see, I'm not saying you're not required to teach Algebra 2, but I will say, if a student at the end of the year can't tell you the story of Algebra 2, then they really don't have it. The kids who do do that, almost intuitively, I've got some chops, but it's even gonna be stronger if we're deliberate.
Cindy:
Oh, so many connections I'm making Heidi because
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I love the, oh.
Cindy:
I think as educators, we just make assumptions all the time, and especially around student connections. We assume they're seeing why things connect. And I'll never forget, I was a fifth grade teacher, and at the end of it, I had a reflection question. It was a musical theater. We just did this giant play, and a kid at the end goes, Miss Cindy, what's musical theater? And I was like, what?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh, yeah.
Assessing connections and rethinking layouts (24:18)
Cindy:
Right? So like, it computes with how our brains work. understand how brains work, if we're not connecting prior knowledge to the new experiences, if we're not explicitly making those connections, then we're losing out. It's not going to last.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think that's right. You know, one thing you make me think about and what we've been doing, by the way, with this storyboarding is we've been having districts work on this. I know that Allison has done a lot of work with some very large school districts and independent schools recently where we have thousands and thousands of teachers doing this with students and the response has been tremendous. What you, what you realize is, um, the, the number of assumptions that have been made, that we're all creatures of habit. And the other thing is we're off, we often majored in what we teach. So we kind of see the connections and these kids are traveling to eight countries in a day, you know, all these subjects where the language changes. And it's not just the one thing we're designing. It's. They're young, they're developing, they're attempting to make those connections and they frequently do not. So I think this collaborative piece is important and I might add that we also have a very strong feeling about teaching kids how to do this so they can create their own. But the key here is in many of these schools we're working with, we make these available to parents. Parents have these and you can... And it really creates a degree of transparency. And you can give them a version that doesn't have all the detailed standards and everything else. You can add what you want. You can put it into your mapping software or however you want to do this. But the kids can respond or, you know what? That's not what I got out of this unit. Or here's a question. And finally, here's the key, going back to what you said. We should be assessing to see whether they can find a connection, not just only that they got some interesting insight or went deep into a unit, but can they step back and can you show me the connection between what we did previously and what we just did? What questions would you ask moving forward? So people are rethinking the sequence of their layouts. So in other words, you start to go, well. I just always like to do this thing before the holidays in December. I'm like, that's interesting, but is that necessarily what should be there? And it's created some interesting revisions on the curriculum planning level that are showing up too. It's been quite fascinating.
Cindy:
What I like there as well when you're talking about the student journey is that I almost imagine that a student can see themselves as the hero of the narrative.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
That's right. We have that in the book. That's the hero's journey.
Cindy:
love chatting with you, Heidi. It's always so affirming.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
You're on your game. You're on your game.
Cindy:
is that though that if I'm a student, I was talking with Yang Zhao and this conversation has come back to me that we need to have these rigid profiles of student strengths and interests and passions. So if they see themselves as sitting at the center of the story, they're
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
That's right.
Cindy:
able to track how this grew them. And how much more beautiful is that than a deficit thinking when it comes to our curriculum?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I totally agree and I love his thinking and know him and value his collegiality. I think he says that beautifully and he has such an interesting and fresh way of getting us to step back and look at individual students and who they are authentically. And I think that's right. That's absolutely right. And you know, it's everybody will tell their story. So in a way it's like, you know, Hugo's story of Algebra II or Bridget's story of Algebra II or Mohammed's story of Algebra II, whoever the student is, they are on their own hero's journey, that's right. That is a really critical part that it's sense-making and if they can't make sense of it, then it isn't. There's, yeah,
Cindy:
useful.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
it's not useful. That's a good point for sure. You know, one thing that I've also been able to weave in from the mapping work is like, you know, this idea of you choose the genre, like there's a difference between, you can take the experience and you can certainly write a topical narrative, but you can do a problem solving narrative or an issue based narrative or a thematic narrative or. case studies and approaching it as teachers and as writers and laying out the menu, they get very excited. So one thing I just wanna say is we are finding that teachers get lit up. We've been talking a lot about the students that I want to, but I just have to say right now, I think the field needs a little bit of a lift. And when there's a boogie, I think this has turned out to be quite a refreshing way of. of working.
Cindy:
So that's a good point. Let's zoom out a little bit here and think about leaders who are trying to shift their perspective. What would you say is the perspective shift, the skillset shift? You know,
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah.
Cindy:
how do I facilitate this?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think that's a good time to ask it. You know, you mentioned the book and I appreciate that. The title of the book though, starts points in the direction of leaders, okay? The title of the book is streamlining the curriculum, colon, using the storyboard approach to frame student journeys.
Cindy:
us.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
But streamlining is where leadership is critical. Because... The storyboarding piece is the student-facing, parent-facing, also other teacher-facing image. And there are lots of examples. I can give you some resources and websites if people want to take a look at some storyboards. And there's an article that came out and had leadership on it. So I'll get
Cindy:
Cool.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
resources if you want. They want to see what they look like. Because it is really interesting to see them.
Cindy:
We'll link those in the related resources. So anybody's looking on the website, you'll find those there.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Great, and I'll certainly get those to you. But the streamlining piece, you can't do so well with that leadership. And I really feel it should be more building or division-based, whether you're in a international school, secular school, religious school, national school, whatever. You know, knowledge keeps growing every year and so you can't keep adding on more. So the question is, how do we make choices about what to cut, keep? create, and we believe in a review process to be very deliberate about that, and based on timeliness of information and relevance as well as certain subjects. And so it's not like you're throwing everything out at all, but when you take a hard look, there really is more give than we think, and part of it is also based on the student population. So Some schools have many, or multilingual, the way they may be approaching the decision-making may look different than a school has primarily one language. There's basics there. And also the size of the school makes a difference. So I really do know it's tailored and customized to a building, but leadership needs to begin to come up with a review process. Otherwise, teachers are just getting pummeled. You gotta teach this and this and this.
Cindy:
Too
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
And
Cindy:
much.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
if I'm not gonna teach it, I'm covering it.
Cindy:
Yes.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
And so I think what we've laid out is a review process based on your aspirations, whether they are a portrait of a graduate, whether it's sort of future forward learning goals, whether it's ATLs, you've got to have a basis of making decisions. And in the book, we reference just a fantastic example of a... an international school in Buenos Aires, the Lincoln School. We worked with Madeline Haidt, who's just recently left the school and I believe is now consulting. She's a brilliant, absolutely brilliant colleague. And in that school, Alice and I worked with them to shift their decision-making over to more modern oriented roles. So you needed to show your choice based on whether, if you wanted your student to be an innovative designer, and you got to make choices about that, in other words. Or... We want our students to be mindful contributors or local ambassadors or digitally literate media critics. You know, you begin to make choices based on roles that tends to help you. And so I think leaders have to help schools quit feeling like it's a pile on situation.
Cindy:
Yes.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
All the line in the sand use. goals that you're in agreement about and begin to make choices in a deliberate way. We have a five-point review process that people are using, including some international schools right now.
Standards vs. Curriculum (34:10)
Cindy:
So does that mean so let's say I'm using Common Core, typical standards used all around the world, would you advise for a team to sort through and say something like, these are high priority, we're going to teach and assess these, and these aren't high priority, or how do we do that work?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Okay, that's a very good question. Here's how I would play that differently, and I'm often asked this, so I'm glad you raised it. I don't think standards are curriculum, really. They're not at all. They're not written as curriculum. They're a list of proficiencies organized in a taxonomy. So there's a list about reading information. There's a list about reading literature. There's a writing list. Your job is to bundle and place them strategically across the year where they naturally embed and can live in the way you've laid out your curriculum. They're scaffolding in the architecture, but they're not really the building. They're common, really well thought out, proficiency targets. I think one of the reasons, if I might, people run into trouble there, is there's a thought like, oh, it's like cherry picking. I'm taking this one, check. I'm doing this one, check. Notice the pronoun, I'm doing
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
it. Standards, you don't teach standards. Kids, demonstrate them. So the idea is you design and you take the bundles of these. This is where mapping is great. And I can use, I do it in Storyboard, but mapping's terrific where, whether, you know, whatever software platform you're using. you look at the year and you don't just randomly put them in, you can bundle and place them. And most software in mapping allows you to get a pretty quick analysis on which standards you've addressed and which ones you're assessing. And so to me, they're backbone and they're incomplete. I mean, the Common Core was written, was released in 2010. It was written in 2009. And it still holds up quite well. But I think speaking and listening are under under written and there could be more there. I think that media was just tangential. They'll be updated. I hope so. I mean, it might make people crazy to hear it, but standards should be updated. You want your medical practice to be updated. I
Cindy:
Right?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
think the idea here is to not confuse them with the actual curriculum, because there's a thousand ways, I can a thousand novels I can teach when I teach literature. It's to really understand them as thoughtfully. actually, generally speaking, very nicely laid out proficiency targets that we bundle place across the year. That and this, now I'm talking my mapping language.
Cindy:
But I love that quote you said there. You don't teach standards, students demonstrate them.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
That's right. So the design of them, see, that's where we get into trouble. It's like I'm teaching at them. If I say, for example, there's classic standards in, in, uh, in writing, um, say a persuasive essay, writing persuasively, universally will be, I can, uh, make a claim and support it with evidence. And, uh, you know, okay, but you don't just go kids. go do a claim and do it. You have to teach them how to do it because here's the other thing that is often missing. I always say to teachers at the end of every standard put this adverb. put the adverb independently, and it's a game changer.
Cindy:
Huh.
Standards as learning targets (37:31)
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
And then turn it into a learning target. All standards should become learning targets. I can, I can, I'm the student now, you're the teacher, Cindy. So I can make a claim, I can support it with evidence independently. That's different than Cindy taught at me about this. So you don't know students have any master of standards till they do it without you. And
Cindy:
that transfer.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
curriculum, exactly, the curriculum gives them the setting and the situation and the prompts and the incentives to do it. So if I ask my kids to make a claim on something they're absolutely uninterested in, I just believe me right now, and I know you all know where I'm going with this, they're not gonna be claiming much. because they're not motivated. So part of the art of curriculum writing is weaving the science of it, these thoughtfully pedagogically sequenced skills, but the setting that will really enliven and ignite a student.
Cindy:
I love that. The language I've used in the past is that your subjects are the tools for solving these problems. So in your story, you've identified this narrative, the problem, the journey you're going to go on, and how might each of those standards along the way become like a tool that you find that helps you go further
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think
Cindy:
into the story.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
that's great. I just I love that too. I'm gonna have to quote you.
Cindy:
I'd be honored.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh, you're right. That's absolutely right. The key I think on that if I might just a little nudge a little bit. I want the students to say that.
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
See, if they don't get it, then it doesn't really matter. I mean, we, we need to start to include the more so I think the other caveat that we learned in working on this book, And also the last years and the last iteration of my mapping stuff is absolutely the shift to learning targets. I really, you know, I don't, you know, when I work with any school or district, I'm really clear about, and I don't get resistance being most people are this way, but maybe just by the time they're asking me or one of my colleagues to come, they're already there anyway.
Cindy:
They're desperate. Ha ha ha.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
No, no, no, not at all. Oh God. Sometimes, let's not go there. is that if it isn't, it really has to be the student owning it. So the learning target work, which started about 10 years ago, really is true, is much more brain friendly, is that I can find evidence to support a hypothesis. I can sound out consonant blends. I can balance an equation. And if I can't, then I'm struggling with it, then I own it. And I began to become more of a partner with the teacher in learning. So I'm a real believer that making the standards part of it and the students knowing it is critical. Rick Steggans, who is just brilliant on assessment, big influence for me, based in Oregon. found writer in this area always said that if a student doesn't know what the target is they can't hit it. It's pretty down to earth. So maybe once you have to see what it is and how they're getting there.
Shifting perspectives on curriculum design (41:08)
Cindy:
I love that Heidi. So where do I start? If I'm going about this process, I wanna change my curriculum in the way my staff is talking about it, where do I start?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah, I think one of the things that is important if you were to start, you know, if you were using this idea of narrative, you can start with a book study. But I also think you might start with a storyboard study that I would start by becoming familiar as a leader myself. But I'd also invite a few teacher leaders to do this with me to begin. And I very likely, depending on the age of the students, invite a few students in. And what I'd wanna do is model the very thing we're talking about is let's take a look at this. And let's get in touch with some schools that are doing this and how it's made a difference. But I think the beginning part is to document almost your own narrative of the experience. And... to look at why we need it. And I think the problems, I think beginning by putting the problem on the table is critical. Dewey said that, so did Einstein, that a problem well-stated is half solved. And I think you start off by looking at are teachers overwhelmed with so much curriculum? Yes. Are students participating in curriculum or do they feel like it's done to them? Let's find out about that. Is there too much from the kid's point of view? What's working? What's not? How do we communicate it? Are students really aware of the plan of the year? You can start by unearthing the problems that will help you. These are positive problems, meaning it's not like you're berating yourself. You're going, what is it we want to really get at? What is it we want to move? And then I think doing your due diligence and a little bit of case study work. and if you were to get in touch with, and we can help you with that too. I mean, schools that have begun to go this route, what is it you got out of it? You begin to make the case. So I think initially it's like any early inquiry, you do your homework, you do your study, you do research and research means search again, research. So you go back over it and I think you then present. to smaller groups and a faculty depending on your size. I don't think coming in and saying, we're gonna do this works, though sometimes it does. But our experience is, I can't remember, honestly. Now I have a long career. I can't remember an initiative. We are so, we have had such a good response so quickly. It's pretty amazing. And this summer we're doing some really interesting, innovative sort of almost like learning camps where we're gonna start, everyone's gonna participate intensively through the year, we'll
Cindy:
this.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
share our work. There's large districts, small schools, people are contributing. We've started to collect and we'll continue to collect for gallery on our website on this stuff. And ASCD is very excited too, we really appreciate their support. I'm happy to tell you we were selected as the world member for in August, which means. Any of the listeners who are already members of ASCD will get a copy. And for me, you know,
Cindy:
So cool.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
in my career, I've had that happen before. What's great about it is it gets it out there in the world of ideas. So what I would say is start investigating and looking
Cindy:
Hmm.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
at it. Um, yeah.
Cindy:
I love that. I'd love to kind of pivot back to something you said pretty early in our conversation. And you talked about, not, you didn't use the word regret, but that was kind of the vibe I got of just some work that you'd done that was well-intentioned at the time, but your thinking has shifted. So might you fill in the phrase for me, I used to think, but now I think, in terms of curriculum.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh man, wow. Yeah, I would say I used to think that having a, I wouldn't use the word elaborate, but I would say that I used to think that having a template that required of teachers, and that's really the truth, to have a lot of detail that included information that was already out there and available. I used to think having it really detailed and laid out would really contribute more to student development than the lesson plans. And I don't think that anymore. I think that if you look at architectural blueprint, it's very straightforward. The lesson plans are where the deep, the construction plan is the detailed plan. First, we're gonna dig the hole, then we're gonna put the cement in, which you know what you're building. So I would say proportionally, I would say that if I were to do it over, I would say more streamlined unit design, the storyboarding actually, and more detailed work on supporting teachers in the work they do at lesson planning. Another one, I don't wanna go on forever, so don't worry, I won't. But I would say one thing that I think has changed. is I was very focused on, and I still do love to work with people on really detailed work on creating that unit. And I did not pay attention to the layout in terms of deliberate overt, that's the right word, curriculum connections. And three, the reason why is we wrote it for our internal. organization and group and I don't think that's who needs to be able to read it. If a doctor gives you a prescription and you don't understand it, you're not going to do it. And so part of it is being much more aware and inclusive of families and kids. And I think sometimes people feel left out because they don't have good information. So the writing, the rewriting, the voice has totally changed for me. That's probably the biggest thing. is in writing the narrative, I want my readers to be able to understand it. So there's that. Those are good for starters, I probably I have a lot more you're gonna I'm gonna be thinking of them all
Cindy:
I like
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
night.
Cindy:
that. Feel free to share them. We can post a whole page of Heidi's I used
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh,
Cindy:
to thinks,
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
you know,
Cindy:
but now I
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I
Cindy:
thinks.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
don't know, do-overs, here's the do-over. Let's,
Cindy:
Hahaha
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
yeah. Oh, I do have one. Not gonna forget this one. This is one I've said for quite a few years, and if there's anybody listening who's ever seen me talk about this stuff. A number of years ago, I wrote a couple books about literacy and reading, writing, speaking across disciplines and the integration of literacies. And one of the things I wrote about and feel strongly about that I made a big mistake. is how I used to correct student papers when I was a classroom teacher. I marked them up. Yeah, I used a red pen. I marked them up. And so guess who got better at improving the student work? I did. I did the work for them. You know, that's a funny thing, isn't it? That really, if we look at that verb, and you know, or adverb independently, my goal should have been to help students know how to edit their work. I would teach differently or to revise their work. I did it. I, you know, I did it on dissertations too. I did some nice revisions where I would go through, oh, I'm gonna try this, this, and this. And I don't think that's teaching. You know, I think in a way, it's undermining what students do. So it isn't that you leave them on their own, it's that you then really do teach. But that one I can't forget, so thanks.
Cindy:
That reminds me, Trevor's, Trevor McKenzie's definition of agencies. He says, he asks himself, what am I doing for students that they might be able to do for themselves? Right. And isn't
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Love
Cindy:
that just
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
that. Oh,
Cindy:
a lovely
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
great.
Cindy:
question to keep at the center of our practice?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Oh, nice work, Trevor. You nailed it. That's great.
Cindy:
Well, I think this is a lovely space to pause. I'm so excited about this work. And I'm so excited just to have you come on and share it because I think it's gonna blow up in the next year. And so
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Thank
Cindy:
for
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
you.
Cindy:
this to be a resource for people to come back to and really hear the heart of where this idea came from, I think is just so valuable.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Great. Did you want to pause now or what's your?
So Heidi, I'm thinking about technology. You know, there's been a lot said recently about the role of technology, and I'm curious, how might we use tech to make this process better?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I love that you're asking that, is it also ties in with mapping. I mentioned earlier when you asked me about the earlier, the early start of curriculum mapping for me and how we moved into software platforms. And I had the good fortune of working with wonderful software platforms from all over the world. And what's interesting right now is many of them are quite user friendly in terms of storyboarding. And like I was saying before, when we storyboard first and then move into the maps, it is truly smooth. I have worked with schools and districts my entire career, and sometimes it is so hard and people really struggle. But when they stop and look at it as a narrative and then they move it in, and the beauty of the software is you can tweak it, it works out well. Some software groups are actually making adaptations, and some, like Total, are very user-friendly in terms of allowing for images and pictures and encouraging it too. And also flexible, because you can choose your layout and template. So you could fundamentally choose a curriculum storyboard template style language and use that just as well. But what's great is you could then have that available either online or certainly printing out and get that available to parents and kids. So some software is saying here's the version you could give to families and here's one you can have with the teachers. But the flexibility is right there and there's enormous interest in this work because it is catching on. That is really true.
Exploring the Influence of AI and Chat GPT on mapping (52:34)
Cindy:
I'm going to tag this question on and I wonder how you feel about AI and things like chat GPT and how they're going to influence the role of, of mapping.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think, let me first of all just start off by saying, I'm thinking about it too. I actually, the amazing Mike Fisher, who is a wonderful colleague I've known for maybe 15, 20 years. Mike has always been a superstar in digital learning and has written quite a number of books. Mike and I are good friends. And we just wrote an article that will be coming out in the summer at Leadership. And what we are basically writing about is chat, AI chat, GPT, colon, in need of prompt literacy,
Cindy:
Mmm.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
not prompt like fast, but that the key
Cindy:
generating.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
is it's not going to go away and everyone's worried about the cheating question. And I'm sort of like, let's, they can cheat now. I mean,
Cindy:
Right.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think that's real. I get, I get it to some extent, but I think the bigger question is, then you read. Well, how do you work it and leverage it? And how you leverage it is, are the prompts that are fed into chat GBT or what dictates the outcome? And ironically, you could use it and leverage it. And that's, we have a model we've written about in this article. It'll be, you know, how you use Jacobs and Mike Fisher on prompt literacy and AI chat GBT. You'll find it. But the, and actually maybe we can include it in the resources, because I think it's gonna be a... any day now. But the thing that we wrestled with that we started to look at and we ran a lot of programs and tried it is if you, if the student just goes in and says, write a paper about Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or write about Edgar Allan Poe or write about Anne Green Gables, whatever, you'll get something. But they're usually quite innocuous. The prompt allows me to teach you about style. So I might say... you could choose three different styles. Choose the style that Mary Shelley would have written in. You know what I'm getting at? Or you could write it like it's Bay Wolf. In this way, they start to actually go, wow, now I see the difference in the styles. Or
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
what you realize, it can be a kind of come back as a teaching tool, but it's also true that the benefit and the good things that can potentially come out of this. will be coming very much by our being able to help kids drive it and
Cindy:
Yes.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
learn from it. So that's, you know, I am thinking about this a lot.
Cindy:
It is, I think prompt generation is the skill set of the future that
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
It is.
Cindy:
it.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
That's exactly what we're writing about. And like I say, we've got a model in there and some examples.
Cindy:
Cool. I can't wait to read it.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Right.
School Leaders’ Countdown - The final 3! (55:34)
Cindy:
Amazing. OK, so, Heidi, I've got to set a final three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show, so are you ready for our final three?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Get me with them.
Cindy:
OK, question number one, what is the book that has had the most profound impact on your practice?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I would probably say Maxine Green's Landscapes of Learning and her work, she was really quick. She was brilliant, she was remarkable. And she also wrote some other books on existential phenomenology and what's interesting to me is that's so. contemporary right now, how do we write about phenomena? What landscapes of learning really brought to me both the philosophical terms, but the aesthetic of writing curriculum. And there was an elegance to it that knocked me out, that I think she elevated people by modeling that kind of brilliance. She was a professor at Columbia University. She was also one of my dissertation advisors, but that book I would say was right up there.
Cindy:
I love that. Shooky, I'll have to add that to my list. Okay,
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Okay.
Cindy:
the second question is kind of my personal research question. And it's shifting, the question is shifting, but really comes down to this idea that when you meet leaders, there tends to be kind of two camps, right? The people who are more focused on like results and products, and some are more focused on sustainability, culture, growth. And I'm wondering, how do you balance this? How do you have? really joyous workspaces, but also really productive workspaces.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think your analysis is pretty accurate, and I think the idea is one that falls under something. I don't want to sound esoteric here, I really don't, but it's hedelian, it's the thesis and the antithesis. And we've got to get rid of that. So first of all, I would say drop it. In other words, acknowledge it. and then go, this isn't totally real. I think it's a way of avoiding growth. I think when people go to camps, it feels safe. And then you get into the camp and you can take pot shots. I'm much more of a continual person. I think that in my understanding of breaking through Hegelian logic, you start to see there's more on the menu. That isn't it possible? You definitely want productivity, but what is the impact of a... culture that is inclusive, that is a culture that is also, wants to develop thinking and responsiveness. What is, how does that affect the product? How might it? Similarly, how, if we have a place that feels good, but we don't look at what it looks like, are we kidding ourselves? So what kinds of products and demonstrations can allow that to happen? So, I think when we fall into camps, it's an avoidance strategy, and it's old, and common, and very human. And the truth is what you described is 100% accurate. I would agree with you, Cindy, in that there's a lot of self-perception that way. But from the outside, I'm going, come on, enough. That was like 1900s. And the first place I wrote about this was the disciplines versus interdisciplinary. Please, you can't do math in the real world without it being interdisciplinary, but you can certainly zoom into math. There's places where you should. You can't go to do quality interdisciplinary if it's just this potpourri. The point here is to step back and have shared questions. It isn't meeting in the middle either. That models it too. It's just what are our options? And I think that it is a question of putting it down. like you just are saying so clearly, there's a problem on the table and what's behind it and then begin to look at some of those in between.
Cindy:
That's a beautiful thread that came up earlier as well. It's this idea that if we can recognize the problem, it almost answers itself. So as a community, where do we make space and voice? It's those unsaid things. It's the shame that kills you. So if we can get it on the table, we can solve it.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah, I think so. I mean, you can't, you know, and that's right. That's why I said they're half solved. And I sometimes think they're more than half solved. There's true music. But you know, I had a mentor when I was young, who said, always remember if you're with a group of people that you're working with. And if you can put a problem on the table that you all can look at, you will attack the problem. But if you don't put it on the table, you'll attack each other.
Cindy:
Woof.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
I think when I go to schools and the value of being an outsider in a way is you're being brought in to do that and you can just see it. You can go like, you guys don't really wanna deal with this problem. You'd rather attack each other. And you can't just go snap. But I think leaders know that and then the great leaders help people feel good about themselves. Great leaders. aren't critical of the group in a negative way, but rather, you know, owning it and good listeners, but also strategists, you know, divide and conquer, I always say, who comes to the table, maybe we mix up our groups, but yeah, curriculum can bring out a lot of territoriality, that's for sure. So it's a good question you ask.
Cindy:
Thanks, Heidi. Final question for you. And it's, you've worked with teachers in schools all around the world. You know, I call you the queen of curriculum mapping. So if you had one piece of advice, if you could stand on a stage and talk to every educational leader in the world, what would your piece of advice be that would be transformational for them?
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Mm-hmm. I want to be fair to you because you've asked a really, it's a good question to ask at the end of a presentation, but I think there isn't a piece of advice. I think what it is is really being in the situation you're in and knowing yourself as a person and being transparent and... really paying attention to the fact their whole people who we talk about whole child There's whole adult people in in a setting They bring their aspirations and disappointments. They bring their family situations whether wonderful and joyous or difficult They bring their own health issues to the table and I think coming to the table as a As a group of human beings trying to make things work is really important and to listen, but also to be willing to take a stand for kids, and that we're ultimately working for the students. So know the kids, know their needs, and I think deal with people as human beings and giving guidance works much better than here's a list of 10 steps, we go through it, we'll have it. And so I think those relationships work best that are informed. And bottom line is it's always what will help kids for the future.
Cindy:
Beautiful. I just love that. I think it's a thread throughout this is just the humanity of school
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yep.
Cindy:
and our job as leaders to keep humanity of our teachers and of ourselves and of our students at the center of all that we're doing. And if we do that, we really, I mean, we can make missteps along the way, but it's a good compass.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Yeah, I think so. You know, in medicine, you know, I say, when you take the oath, it's always in the patient's best interest and do no harm. And I think for us, it's like that and keep learning. So I suppose that would be the number one thing. Okay, I do have one line I'm gonna cap it off. Buber said that, I believe he said, if you're going to be a lifelong educator, be a public learner.
Cindy:
Beautiful.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
That's that'll be it.
Cindy:
That's where you want to end it.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Thank you, Cindy. It was
Cindy:
Heidi,
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
really.
Cindy:
it's always a privilege to talk to you, and I always come away just the next day's thinking and waking up with aha moments. So I know I hope everyone enjoys this conversation half as much as I enjoyed recording it with you.
Heidi Hayes Jacobs:
Thank you very much. Take care.
