Welcome to Russ and Lisa (02:29)
Cindy:
Thank you so much for being on the show. It's so awesome to have you guys here.
Russ:
Thank you
Lisa Lande:
Our
Russ:
very
Lisa Lande:
pleasure.
Russ:
much.
Lisa Lande:
We're looking forward to the conversation.
Cindy:
So I'd love for you to set the stage for our audience. Who are you both and what is the work that you do that you're passionate about?
Russ:
Well, I guess I'll start. I'm Russ Qualia. I head up the Qualia Institute for Student Voice and Aspirations. I actually work for Lisa and do pretty much everything she tells me to do. And part of that is
Cindy:
Smart
Lisa Lande:
Yeah.
Russ:
to promote
Cindy:
man.
Russ:
the... Exactly. Part of that is to promote the importance of student voice. And quite frankly, the voice of everyone that participates in school. Principal voice, teacher voice, parent voice. to make sure that voices are listened to, learned from, and then ultimately acted upon.
Cindy:
Beautiful.
Lisa Lande:
And I'm Lisa Landy and the truth is I have the great privilege of working for the big boss, Dr. Russ Quaglia. And it really is a privilege to be part of this team. I get the great honor of working a lot in the field with schools and districts and systems that are really looking to take this work, not just in theory from reading a book, which can be a great start, but who are really serious about translating this into work where it becomes a way of being in their schools and systems that has a profound impact on the students that they serve and quite frankly, the adults who are in the system as well.
Biggest misconceptions around voice (04:07)
Cindy:
Beautiful. So the work you do centers around voice, which I think is such an important concept in schools right now and always has been, but what do you see as being kind of the biggest misconceptions around what voice is and its importance in schools?
Russ:
Yeah, Lisa, do you want to start with that? Or do you want me to jump?
Lisa Lande:
Sure, yeah, sure, I'll jump in. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that voice is just about the words that are coming out of our mouths. Especially from a student perspective, they will think, oh, my voice, that's about me saying lots of things. And quite often it translates into, and that's about me telling adults what I want them to do for me.
Cindy:
Mmm.
Lisa Lande:
And we have a very different way of looking at voice. So Dr. Russell, I'll kick over to you if you want to talk about the way that we at the Institute frame voice and kind of try to tackle that misconception.
Russ:
Yeah, and the other misconceptions I would add, I'm going into my 44th year of studying and researching student voice and aspirations. And I think the biggest misconception, and I agree with Lisa, it's this notion that voice is just about words. And we tell people all the time, you don't just listen with your ears, but you can really listen with your eyes. If you look at that term, listen. I don't need to have a conversation with a student if school is boring, if their heads on their, you know. heads are on their desk and they're looking out the windows. That's not about voice, this is about paying attention. But I see some biggest misconceptions that it's easy, we're already doing it. Oh, this is the way we operate in our school and it's just wrong. The other biggest misconception, I think it's because I'm getting older and have less patients, which I know it's hard for a lot of people to believe that I could possibly even have less patients, is... that it makes me nuts when people say, oh, it's the nice thing to do. And there's such a misconception about that. It's not a nice thing to do. It's a critical thing to do. People say, oh, that's a nice little added feature. I'm like, no, no. That's the feature film. Voice is the feature. It's not like an add-on. It's not like a little touch of this or it's a cute thing to do because I heard somebody speak about it. No. It's a critical component for all of us to be able to share our voice, to be listened to, to be learned from, and to be acted with. And wow, that was early in the podcast to go on a rant, but I was ready for you.
Cindy:
I
Lisa Lande:
Right,
Cindy:
love it.
Lisa Lande:
can I add one more thing to the mix? I would also say another misconception that we see is that student voice is reserved for student leaders, like those who are elected to student council or whom the students are that already love to use their voice and speak up very naturally. And we really embrace this idea of voice for all, that every student has a unique and powerful voice. Some are just more naturally inclined to know how to use that, and others need a little bit more support in developing that. But all students have a voice, and that's what we're after.
Russ:
And to get to
Cindy:
Awesome.
Russ:
pick up on that point,
Cindy:
So
Russ:
we should
Cindy:
I...
Russ:
go ahead.
Cindy:
No, go for it.
Russ:
I was just gonna say to pick up where Lisa left off, where she was leading this to, probably the absolute biggest misconception is that we all understand what voice means. And what we found is that if you survey students, everyone is gonna have a different definition of voice. If you talk to teachers, you talk to school leaders, they all are perceiving this notion of voice as something different. And what we found is one of the biggest barriers. to implementing and infusing voice in schools as a way of being is this notion that we don't have a shared understanding of what it really means. So I believe most of our work, and Lisa can attest to this, she's in the field a lot more than I am now, is to define what we mean by voice. And we look at voice as having three components. And the very first one is about being able to share thoughts and ideas, and that's pretty straightforward. And in an environment, underpinned by trust and respect. Now that's the key component of that first phase. It's one thing to share your thoughts and ideas, but are you really sharing thoughts and ideas unless it's underpinned by someone that you respect or that you trust? Then I'm really sharing my thoughts and ideas. And we landed on that forever. Like literally in the first book that we wrote, not a very creative title, it's called Student Voice, a bunch of years ago, that was our definition. And we thought we nailed it like, well, yeah. Well, that's a definition of voice sharing thoughts and ideas
Cindy:
Done.
Russ:
and environment underpin by trust and respect boom like that one out Then we're in the field the same Well, you know what? That's a lot like noise people are just saying things and just that not making sense
Cindy:
Hmm.
Russ:
So we added another component in the second component is I wanted to share your voice But I also want you to offer realistic suggestions for the good of the whole Now all of a sudden sharing my thoughts and ideas has a whole new meaning. It's way deeper It's not just telling you what I think. It's not just telling you what you should do. But now I'm thinking for the good of the whole, a novel concept in most cultures right now. And I'm offering realistic suggestions. I hear people all the time say, think outside the box, think outside the box. I'm like, man, you can think outside the box all you want, but you live in a box. You work in a box. Bedazzle your box, make you creative, do whatever you can do in the box. But you can't live outside a box and make believe that. Everything is going to be dandy no matter what I say. So that again, the second component, realistic suggestions for the good of the whole. And the third component is accepting responsibility. And that's where I think school leaders fall flat on this thing. It's encouraging students to accept responsibly, not only what they say, but what needs to be done. Typically we'll see students express their ideas, even if they offer realistic suggestions for the good of the whole. The leadership then takes it from there and does something. And it's like, no, that's not voice. Voice is sharing thoughts, realistic suggestions for the good of the whole, and, and the big and is I'm gonna lead together with the students to make a change. Whew, that was a lot. Lisa, fill in all those blanks that I left out.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, well, I mean, I guess, Cindy, I would be, I know that you've studied our work and that you've looked at this definition before. I'm curious what resonates the most with you from our definition from the work that you're doing with schools across the globe.
Cindy:
For me, what's always resonated with your definition is the counter piece of action. That it's not just something that we share or put out there but that responsibility of follow through. But I would really love to dig into each of these three components, because we went through each of them. But I'd love to kind of go one at a time and talk about them. So first you said was trust and respect. And I'm curious, you've worked with lots of schools. What are the things that we as administrators can do to just create that environment of trust and respect, that foundation.
Russ:
Yeah,
Lisa Lande:
I'll let
Russ:
one
Lisa Lande:
you
Russ:
thing...
Lisa Lande:
take that one, Russ, because I really wanna talk about part two.
Cindy:
Awesome.
Russ:
Perfect. And you see very clearly who's working for who now.
Lisa Lande:
I'm sorry.
Russ:
So that first component, it's a tough one for leaders, for students, for teachers, for anybody, quite frankly, because here's the truth of the matter. The ugly truth is this, and I'll pull back the blinders here, is that our educational system is not built on a foundation of trust and respect. Our educational foundation is built on testing. and accountability. That's what we're driven by, testing and accountability.
Cindy:
Yes.
Russ:
Now, I get that. I get the importance of testing and I get the importance of accountability. We want our kids to go to school to become smarter, not dumber. I totally get that. We wanna see growth. I totally get that and respect that. But at the same time, you can also build an environment of trust and respect. So how do we do that as a leader? By having open and honest conversations. Like really open and honest conversations. I'm not going to ask your opinion if it doesn't matter to me. I want to ask your opinion because I really, really want to hear what you're saying. I not only want to hear what you're saying, I want to learn why you're saying it. So I challenge administrators all the time. Like they'll say, oh, we have these forums. I'm like, well, that's awesome. What did you learn from the students? And they'll say, well, I learned this, that, and the other thing. And then I would say to them, have you learned why they think that way? Because that's the core. It's not just listening to them and learning like, oh, I didn't know that before. You need to go deeper as a leader and you need to understand why they think that way. You need to understand why they're feeling that way. And then you'll have the real power of saying, I not only listened to what they said, I learned from what they said, and now I can work with the students because I really understand where they're coming from. It's that last component that takes time that a lot of educate, I don't want to say all, but a lot of educational leaders don't do. And I think that's critical. And I know it takes time. I'm not naive, but I also think it's critical.
Where do we see voice in schools? (13:14)
Cindy:
So is that forums, is it visiting classrooms or being present on the playground? Where do you see that having the most transformative effect?
Lisa Lande:
I think it's got to be in a lot of different places.
Russ:
Yes.
Lisa Lande:
One of the challenges that we sometimes run into is a school will have one set way, like here's some of the examples that we see. Oh, we have a suggestion box in the office. That's where students can come in and put their ideas. Or we do a survey once a year. Now, trust us, we're big fans of surveys. We have a survey that we think is a pretty good one. And we see lots of other great surveys out there as well. But they give a survey and then go, yep, check, we got some student voice. Or we have a... once a quarter meeting with the principal that five kids get to come to. And they tend to be the five kids that we're already hearing a lot from, their type of voice anyway in a system. So, and it's not that anything is wrong with any of those practices that I just listed, but those are just a starting point. We are looking for practices that permeate every aspect of school. So we are not just giving a survey, we are then looking at that data, not just once, but multiple times in different ways over the course of the year with students. We're then doing focus groups. We're then doing listening sessions, informal things like you mentioned on the playground, just sitting and chatting with students. We have a number of schools that do this really cool thing that we love called Sit With Wisdom, where every other week teachers are invited to come together and bring a couple of students that they identify for whatever reason, always picking different students. And the goal is to just sit at lunch with them and soak in their wisdom. And the kids feel so important when we say,
Cindy:
Mm.
Lisa Lande:
this is called Sit With Wisdom. You are the one with the wisdom today and we're just going to sit and listen to you and learn from you. So we're looking for all sorts of practices that happen on a regular basis.
Cindy:
just increasing that access. There's not a barrier between me and the students. I'm actively involved in their day-to-day life, and so they can come talk to me.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, Russ often says student voice is not an event. So moving from it being here was the event where we got student voice to this is woven throughout the fabric of who we are. It's just as natural as how we breathe and how we do math and reading and writing is we also talk to students and we learn from them and then we take action in partnership with them based on what we've learned.
Cindy:
I love that. And that happens so much in classrooms, but there's some had this disconnect between the administrator and the classroom. There's the veil of the teacher between us and how do we remove that? That's cool.
Russ:
And one of those things too,
Cindy:
Okay, so
Russ:
I think,
Cindy:
second,
Russ:
which is real
Cindy:
oops.
Russ:
with that is the connectedness. We're talking about the leader with the students, but for that to happen, the leader has to have that kind of relationship with the staff. Where we see the greatest growth around student voice is where teachers perceive they have a voice. And there is a trickle-down effect. If the administrator wants to have teacher voice and they feel listened to and learned from, then it's an easy thing for the teachers to go to the students and say, Hey, this is the environment that we listen and learn from. My voice matters and yours does too. I think though that one of the key things about voice to keep in mind, and we have to say this to student leaders all the time, school leaders all the time, because I'll get challenged. Are you thinking student voice is more important than mine? I'm like, no, not even a little, but I can tell you what, it's different. And I tell this to students too. I say, students, your voice isn't better than anybody else's. It's just different than everybody else's. Hence, it's called student voice. If I wanted more teacher voice, I would say more teacher voice. But you represent something different. Not better, different. And once we have that understanding, then we're not in competition of who has a voice, who doesn't have a voice, who's being listened to, who isn't being listened to. All our voices matter, but they're different, which makes it super special. when everything starts working together. And that doesn't mean everyone's sitting in the hallway singing Kumbaya, it means that we're having conversations that are open, that they're honest. I can tell you what I think and not be judged. I know you're listening and trying to learn from me as I am from you. And that's where compromise comes from. But we're light years away from that in too many places right now, because we're in the survival mode of trying to figure out how
Cindy:
Mmm.
Russ:
to go from point A to point B without any bumps in the road. And there's gonna be bumps.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, there's an administrator that we work with in New Zealand who has a quote that I love that is just always stuck with me. She says for her, the hallmark of the greatest staff, and I think it also then translates into some of the hard conversations we have with students as well, is she says, how comfortable can we be being uncomfortable with one another? So voice does not mean you're always going to get your own way. It does not mean everybody's always going to agree with one another. It does not mean all these conversations are going to be easy. It's actually quite messy and quite challenging. But the more comfortable we can get with that process and not feeling like everything has to be perfect and clean and tidy all the time, I think the more real voice becomes in a system.
Cindy:
And it's a beautiful way to model for students that systems are strengthened by diversity. You know, the more diverse the system is, the more voices that we have contributing, the stronger that system's going to be. So what a lovely model and one that we definitely should see more in schools. So Lisa, I know you're excited about component two of the definition of voice. So.
Lisa Lande:
I am.
Cindy:
And I
Lisa Lande:
And
Cindy:
wondered,
Lisa Lande:
yeah,
Cindy:
sorry,
Lisa Lande:
go ahead.
Noise vs. Voice (18:38)
Cindy:
I wondered if you connect the concept of noise versus voice here. under like the realistic suggestions for the good of the whole.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, we actually connect that noise versus voice concept all throughout. Because sometimes we'll hear things like a teacher will say, oh, I've got plenty of student voice. That's the last thing I need more of. Or we'll hear that from administrators about teacher voice. And that's such a quick indicator to us that it's not the type of voice that we're really after. It's not yet the type of voice that embraces all three parts of this definition, because it's coming out sideways and it's sounding a whole lot more like noise. than authentic voice that comes to the table in a safe environment that offers realistic suggestions that are good for everybody and that leads to action. It's just complaining or whining or those types of things. But what we're really after with that second component is the offering of realistic suggestions. So as Russ said earlier, yes, we are all about creativity and let's dream big. That's one of the hallmark Dr. Russ sayings. If I had to. Pick one, it would be that one. He says it all the time, dream big, and he genuinely means it. But then we have to take those big dreams and figure out how they fit within the systems within which we live. And I think that's a great skill for us to work on with adults and definitely to be teaching to students. But my favorite part of that second component is the good of the whole. And I think I just feel so passionate about that right now because we're kind of in a society, even if you look at things like commercials or. music or online shopping, things are all about, we will bring it to you. We will bring you more and more of what you like. And there are all these magical, magical algorithms out there that know what type of music I like and what I wanna buy online. I mean, sometimes I have to go through phases where I banned myself from Amazon because every time I get on, it's like, hey, Lisa, we think you'd like to buy this.
Cindy:
You're
Lisa Lande:
And I'm
Cindy:
like,
Lisa Lande:
like,
Cindy:
I do.
Lisa Lande:
well, yes, I would. How did you
Russ:
Yeah.
Lisa Lande:
know? And that's kind of the world our kids are growing up in with stuff that's just more brought to me, me. And so we have to be really intentional about also teaching students and all people to also look outwards. What is that good of the whole really look like? How is this not just something that will serve me, but that will serve the good of the whole? However you're defining that, sometimes it's in the context of the classroom or the whole school or your family or the community at large. But I just I love that good of the whole piece. And I love the transformation that happens in conversations with. both teachers and students when we have that because teachers fall into the same trap. I love my class and my students and I'm going to advocate for them well and that's really great. But administrators also need teachers who cannot just advocate for their own classroom and their students but see the picture of the whole school. So that part's really important for me.
Strategies for developing voice (21:27)
Cindy:
And are there strategies you found to be helpful for that? It sounds almost like an empathetic design approach, considering multiple perspectives, considering the problems at hand. So are there tools that you use with teams to help them with this skillset?
Lisa Lande:
Yes, do you want
Russ:
Google,
Lisa Lande:
to jump
Russ:
they
Lisa Lande:
in,
Russ:
say
Lisa Lande:
Russ,
Russ:
you're
Lisa Lande:
or do you
Russ:
rolling
Lisa Lande:
want me to
Russ:
right
Lisa Lande:
keep going?
Russ:
now. You keep going, you're on a roll.
Lisa Lande:
Okay, I will keep rolling. Yes, there are definitely big parts and strategies that we do in training when we get the opportunity to work over a long period of time with schools. I think one of the places we start is Russ has mentioned multiple times listening. So we do a lot of work, which sometimes is counterintuitive, especially to kids. When they think about voice, it's about what I'm saying. And we often start with that listening piece, how important it is to first hear others before you seek to have them hear you. And within listening, we talk about, are you just listening to the voices that are easy for you to hear? Are you just listening to the voices that are already an echo chamber of what you think? Or are you intentionally seeking out voices and perspectives that are different than yours. And not just because it's a good thing to do, but because you are genuinely open to learning from those different perspectives. So I think that's a real starting place to being able to embrace and think for the good of the whole is just being aware of what others who have a different perspective than you might possibly think.
Cindy:
Beautiful, such an important skill. And you can imagine how you can scaffold that all the way down to kindergarten. You can be practicing those skills as long as you're aware that that's something that your community values and that's important.
Lisa Lande:
Mm-hmm.
Cindy:
Okay, anything else to add on a component 2? Are we ready for component 3 of the definition?
Russ:
Oh, I think component three,
Lisa Lande:
Dr.
Russ:
but
Lisa Lande:
Russ
Russ:
I don't.
Lisa Lande:
is ready to jump to the action.
Russ:
Yeah, I just don't want to jump in and ruin the dr. Landy podcast right now, but
Lisa Lande:
I know I do have a lot of passion for that that's good of the whole piece.
Russ:
No.
Lisa Lande:
Over to you Dr. Russ.
Russ:
Alright, so
Cindy:
So
Russ:
component
Cindy:
let's talk about
Russ:
three.
Cindy:
responsibility.
Russ:
OK, you know what? This is my fault this because I'm in the deep woods of Maine. I think this like a little few second delay at my end and we're in the middle of a thunderstorm. It's like the Daily Double of not greatness here, so I'm doing my best to stay. I didn't mean to interrupt, so I just want to be up front and apologize already.
Cindy:
You're doing great. So component three is about accepting responsibility. And I'm curious, where do you see this getting stuck in schools? Where does the responsibility get stuck?
Russ:
I think it gets stuck at the very top. And I know we've got educational leaders listening to this and I should never alienate the people I'm speaking with or to, but the bottom line is it gets stuck at the top. The reason being is because we don't give any, like we give fake responsibility. I wanna give genuine responsibility and what's genuine responsibility look like? That there are consequences in accountability to the decisions I make as a student. So as a student, and we're to blame for this, the educators of the world, say, you know, give students more responsibility. But the bottom line is, the administrator is the one that's accountable. So I think we have to be super creative as educational leaders and say, yeah, you know what, I wanna give you responsibility. And let's figure out how you're gonna be accountable for the good, the bad, and the ugly. Because when things work out well, and you give input, you're the hero and on the star because I've listened to student voice. When things go sideways, they forget this was student voice. I become the idiot that believed that students had something to teach me, and I'm the one getting in trouble. So this notion of responsibility and accountability really needs to come from the top and say, I have higher expectations than probably you have of yourself. I expect us to have conversations about this and to come to some mutual understanding. And yet. The bottom line is we might all be accountable at the end. I know the buck, and I hate this term, might stop here at this desk because I'm the principal or the superintendent. But the bottom line is we're in this together. And we need to be able to just release some of that responsibility. And it's hard to do. I get it. It's incredibly hard to do. I've got two little grandkids and I want to give them more and more responsibility, except I know if I do, it's going to take 10 times longer to get something done. probably 90% of the time it's going to be wrong, but they're gonna learn from it and I'm gonna learn from it. So it's just taking a deep breath and saying, you know what, let's do this together. Let's have a conversation about this. What do you wanna do? Why do you wanna do it? And then how will we know when we're successful? We just don't have those conversations because we are, and I'm guilty of this myself, we're in the society of immediate gratification. There is a problem, I'm going to solve it and it's gonna be it. I might get your voice in there if I have time, but if I don't, too bad. But when we talking about voice, it takes time. If people always say, you know, what's one of the barriers, I go time. Cause time is,
Cindy:
Always.
Russ:
is one of those variables out there that just, it's a constant. It just, I can't change it. I can't make it elastic. I can't time is finite. So I got to be creative or I have to prioritize where I'm putting my time. So I do have time to have conversations with students. I do have time to allow them to take responsibility, feel it, own it, be joyous in it, and be ready to be accountable if it doesn't work. We just, I'm a firm believer that we let kids off the hook way too early in this world. When something goes sideways, we're constantly there to bail them out. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I'm not trying to be like a tiller the tongue here, tiller the hun. What I'm trying to say is... that students need to understand there are consequences for their actions, there's consequences for their talks. And this is a tough time in the world to share that with students because we have adults that are running our country that aren't accountable for things that they say. They're not responsible for things that they do. So it's hard to kind of infuse this with young people and say, I need you to be more responsible and accountable than virtually every person you see out in front of your TV screen right now.
Cindy:
That's it.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah,
Cindy:
Oh.
Lisa Lande:
I think two schools are tend to be full of overachievers. You know, a lot of people who become a teacher or an administrator, they were, you know, at some point found success within this type of school environment. And so we want to do well. And we do. I think that comes from a very well intended place. We want to do well for our students and those that we're serving. So when something doesn't go well, like, let's say we, we wade into these waters of giving students more. accountability and more opportunity to make meaningful decisions and something doesn't go right, we tend to swoop in and just try to fix it and cover it up and you know say oh that didn't work let's move on and go back to this way of you know the adults controlling more of the things. When really to Russ, I loved Russ your example of with your grandkids you know when things don't go right or they learn something from it but it's about taking that moment to pause and have the conversation with students. Well that didn't go super well, why not? And what are we going to do different so that we are more successful as a group of learners the next time we try this, rather than just the, oh, that didn't work. It's on me. I'm taking all the responsibility. Let's move on. So I think for that third step of the definition to really become meet its fullest potential, there has to be that true shared responsibility between students and adults.
Cindy:
I like that you emphasize the shared aspect there because it doesn't need to be, oh, now the kids are just taking over control of it. Russ, you kind of call it this idea of co-creating the success criteria. What does it look like when we are successful and how are we gonna get there? Like you said, it takes a lot more work to facilitate that kind of thinking and that kind of planning, but how much more meaningful it is than just dictating something to kids that you think they need.
Russ:
Right, and when we
Cindy:
I
Russ:
do
Cindy:
love
Russ:
that,
Cindy:
that.
Russ:
Cindy, when we do that, what happens Cindy, is that the students have greater ownership of it. And when they have greater ownership in
Cindy:
Mm.
Russ:
something, they're gonna give more of themselves in it, and they're gonna take greater pride in it. When we do these surveys that Lisa alluded to, we talk about having pride in your school. The students that believe they have the most pride in their schools are the ones that have the sense of ownership and control over the environment that they can be proud of, that they can point to and say, This school looks so beautiful, not because we've got the greatest custodial staff on the planet, it's because we all work together to take pride in our school. And so it doesn't sound like much, but it's the tiniest things we can do that are making a difference to increase a sense of pride and aspirations. But to your point, Cindy, if we're going to increase this notion of shareholder responsibility as an educational leader, we need to give up some of it. And we need to raise our expectations, what we're expecting. And you're right. It starts at the littlest of peanuts. We we think that voice and aspirations is this notion which is not thinking about in middle school. How do the know? I'm thinking, you know, one, two, three years old. Let's start creating this environment where, you know, we're talking. We're having conversations. No one's getting their way. This is about getting spoiled. But it's at least feeling confident that I can express my thoughts and ideas and take responsibility. And I just. I don't see that. I don't, I'll say this safely because I'm pretty sure my kids won't listen to any podcasts their dad ever does. But when I see them raising their kids, it's like, holy cow, give them some responsibility to hold them accountable to something. Stop being the safety net about everything. And I, okay, that's because I spent the last week with them. So I'm sort of venting right now. So just.
Cindy:
School leaders project slowly becomes therapy with Russ.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah,
Cindy:
How do you feel about
Russ:
Yeah,
Cindy:
that?
Lisa Lande:
exactly.
Russ:
that's exactly what you're doing. That's exactly
Lisa Lande:
I will
Russ:
what
Lisa Lande:
tell
Russ:
you're doing.
Lisa Lande:
you,
Russ:
Now
Lisa Lande:
it
Russ:
you know
Lisa Lande:
is
Russ:
how Lisa
Lisa Lande:
really
Russ:
feels.
Voice and the early years (31:45)
Lisa Lande:
interesting though. It is really interesting though as an institute, we started to do a whole lot more in that realm of early child voice when Russ became a grandfather. But I do think it's so important and Russ, I would love for you to share a little more about that, your whole thing about there's no size requirement for this ride and just kind of what has really inspired you to. do more in that early childhood space.
Russ:
Yeah, thanks Lisa. I mean, I was so guilty of this and Lisa's absolutely right. We, I have and the team has interestingly enough kind of shift the gears a little bit, not to not do things with middle school, high schoolers, but to realize like, And again, I think that's way, way younger than we are right now. I'm a firm believer in that and not just because I've got two little peanuts for grandkids. But I believe by working with them, their expectations for their role in school is going to look differently. When I was in school,
Cindy:
Definitely.
Russ:
and I did it was 100 years ago, when I was in school, it was like you go to school, you're told what you do, you're teachers always, right? And that's the end of the game. And now, you know, I'm not saying teachers aren't always right, because most of them are, because I'm still afraid of teachers, as you can tell. But I also
Lisa Lande:
Thank you.
Russ:
know that the expectations of students going to school is far different than it is now. What we need to teach the students is how to share their voice in a respectful way, because that's not a natural way of being yet. I tell students all the time, don't have me judge what you're saying by how you're saying it. We need to teach people how to communicate better. We need to teach leaders how to listen better. And quite frankly, I think we need to teach leaders how to communicate to students better. It's not. It's not the same as talking to your staff. It's not the same as
Cindy:
No.
Russ:
talking to your school board. And I see administrators that have this kind of delivery that doesn't matter if they're talking to a five-year-old or a 55-year-old on the school board. It's the same delivery. And I'm like, dude, it's just not working for you. Cause then they wonder like, well, why aren't kids talking to me? Cause they don't like you. You're scared the hell out of them. Don't be scary. That's my words to all the ministries. No, just don't be scary.
Lisa Lande:
I'm sorry.
Cindy:
Yeah, just chill out a little bit.
Russ:
Thanks.
Cindy:
Get down on their level. Talk to them like humans!
Russ:
Yeah.
Lisa Lande:
I do feel like I should add our research around early childhood voice isn't just with Russ's grandkids So they do make great test samples when we develop new things and we were able to partner with the National Association for Elementary School Principals in Crayola a few years ago and did a pretty robust study looking into Particularly from age 3 to grade 2 and man we learned so much. I will say first of all as a researcher on that project It was really great for my self-esteem having spent most of my life in secondary schools I mean, they want to hug you, I got a marriage proposal. It was just fantastic. But we also really truly learned so much. By age three, four, they already have some really incredible ideas formed around what does it mean to be a leader? What does it mean to be a good decision maker? Even though the terms and the vocabulary is a little different. and they are already developing some very strong ideas around voice and leadership and decision-making. And noting what they were already just picking up from the environment and the typical structures we have for early childhood has helped us to then create some resources and strategies and tools to help teachers be very intentional about how to grow and build those things in a meaningful progression as they progress throughout elementary schools. Anyway, we've got a bunch of stuff on our website about that if anybody's interested or you can always reach out to us. As you can tell, we get pretty passionate and nerdy about these types of things and happy to dig in deeper with anybody who wants to reach out for additional conversation.
The website for nerds (36:22)
Cindy:
love a good nerd and your website is so great for nerds because there's just there's so many amazing resources and they're so well researched so we'll be sure to link quite a few of those in the show notes
Lisa Lande:
I'm going to take that as the greatest compliment ever that we have a website that is great for nerds. Like that really genuinely means a lot to me.
Russ:
And I'm getting
Cindy:
Yes,
Russ:
crushed right now.
Cindy:
we gotta stick
Russ:
I'm feeling
Cindy:
together.
Russ:
as deflated
Lisa Lande:
Thank you.
Russ:
right now. So, oh boy.
Lisa Lande:
Thanks.
Cindy:
Nerd is the highest compliment in my book, so you should feel great over there.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah.
Russ:
All right, I'm feeling better.
Stories of transformation (36:53)
Cindy:
love, I think sometimes good good. Sometimes I feel like this can feel very theoretical or very removed from real life. So I wonder if you both might share a favorite story from just of a transformation you saw in a school and what it looked like and what it meant when students reclaimed their sense of voice and what that looks like.
Lisa Lande:
Do you
Russ:
At
Lisa Lande:
want
Russ:
least
Lisa Lande:
to start
Russ:
I know
Lisa Lande:
Russ
Russ:
if
Lisa Lande:
or do you want me to jump in?
Russ:
you go, because if you don't do this one, which I'm sure you will, then I will. But go ahead.
Lisa Lande:
Well, there are about a million different examples that immediately start flooding my mind. So my hardest task was just barring it down to one. But my brain went to a school that's really near and dear to my heart in Los Angeles Unified School District. It's called Gompers Middle School. Probably we've been to a lot of schools all around the world and probably the school with the greatest need. I twice had Uber drivers refuse to take me to this neighborhood because they'd They did not feel that it was safe. And that is the stigma that students in the school grow up with. And I think because of a lot of environmental factors, it had become a very top-down driven school system for safety reasons. I don't think it's because there was any malicious intent. There was just so many factors that had led to that. And over the course of about five years in working with this school, we saw this incredible transformation happen where teachers began to... develop that trust with students and to give them greater levels of shared responsibility. And back to our conversation earlier about was it messy? Absolutely, I've never seen a more messy transition. But once they got to the other side, and they'll always be working on it, it's not like the community or the neighborhood has magically changed into something different. It will be something that they're always working on. But we definitely got to a place. where students came, knew they were safe, knew that their voices and their opinions mattered, that school wasn't something being done to them, it was something being done with them. And we see this really magical thing happen where like the light in their eyes just shifts. And I'm trying to do justice sharing about it, and I'm sure Russ will jump in with some additional details. But we also on our website have some videos, including a video that was done about our work in LA and Gompers is featured in there. And there's this one girl, a student named Jada, who shares in the video. And you watch her speak, and I can almost feel a little emotional thinking about her little face and her little voice. And she said, I know my teacher cares about me because when I say something in class, she looks me in the eye. She says, good job. She makes me feel like what I'm saying is important. And that's
Cindy:
Ugh.
Lisa Lande:
to me the real shift. It's students who had felt like I'm just a problem. All the teachers see me as a problem and something that needs to be fixed. To Jada saying, I know that my teachers care about me and I know that they care about the things that I have to say and I'm important here. And that's to me the type of life-changing shift.
Cindy:
It's so identity affirming that Jada can go home now and she can recognize when she's not being seen and respected and she knows that she's worth more than that. And what a beautiful skill to have the rest of your life when you engage with anyone in conversation.
Russ:
Yeah,
Lisa Lande:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Beautiful.
Russ:
and Cindy, it's not even when she goes home. You're right, but it's not only when she goes home. It's not when she's with her friends. It's
Cindy:
Yeah.
Russ:
just in life, in life in general. And that is exactly the story that I thought you would share. So let me go to
Lisa Lande:
I'm going to go to bed.
Russ:
the other end
Cindy:
You
Russ:
of
Cindy:
know
Russ:
the spectrum.
Cindy:
each other well.
Russ:
Yeah, we do. Let me go to the other end of the spectrum where we also do some work, well, a lot of work overseas. And I'm thinking of some schools in England, the Asperger's Academy Trust. Super high achieving schools doing well in some tough areas It's not like it's the land of Oz out there in the areas that these schools are but really high achieving schools High expectations do a lot of good things one of the things that they had issues Was with this notion of students really owning the school and being proud of they had some issues of pride Which is from the outside looking as like why aren't you proud of this place? Everyone's talking about it one of the things they did is they work with the students about when people come visit the school. So let me back up. When I go to different places, people feel compelled to show me around the school. And I take great pride. I think that's awesome that they take great pride in it. But I am so uncomfortable walking into a classroom just stand in the back. It's like, oh, my. It's like the bane
Cindy:
Yeah.
Russ:
of my existence. It's like, oh, my God, like I've seen nine trillion classrooms. I don't need to see another one. But. And I shared that with the students. I'm like, yeah, lots of visitors here for me personally. I hate visiting your classroom I'm always feeling weird in there. I don't know if I should say something or not So the students had this idea they said dr Russ what about if people come and again this school gets visited a lot What about if people come that we have someone in the classroom that gets up subtly goes to the back? Introduces themselves and tells you what's going on in the classroom and I'm saying man
Cindy:
Awesome.
Russ:
That would be so cool and it's so flipping simple that when people visited
Cindy:
So simple.
Russ:
that school, I swear to you Cindy, when people visited that school, they didn't talk about their high academic achievement, they didn't talk about good discipline issues, they didn't talk about how nice and neat everything was. Every single person talked about, when we went into the classroom, a student got up, introduced themselves to us, shook our hands and told us what they were doing and then sat back down. It was like, and I'm like. Down the other side of it. I'm saying well, did you see all the other things that they do? the point is a student idea
Cindy:
Yeah.
Russ:
of something that simple had an absolute Profound impact on that school what it stood for in that culture Not only happened in that school, but all those other kind of schools that were associated with it It's a way of being there now when someone comes in from away could be a director or a chancellor The Prime Minister was there once the person's gonna get up and introduce themselves and tell them exactly what they're doing in that classroom. And it's just, it's great. Anyway, that's a, I didn't mean to go so in
Cindy:
I love
Russ:
depth,
Cindy:
that.
Russ:
but it's a real example that I think leaders can learn from.
Lisa Lande:
It's such a great example and if I could add just one more thing to it, it started with the class captains. So it started, you know,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Lisa Lande:
with these are the students who are going to get up and go back and introduce themselves. But then they decided that awesome privilege shouldn't be reserved for just the class captains. It should be something that all students get the opportunity to do. And so all classes have developed their own little systems, but one that I had the opportunity to go and visit. Every student in the class had a number. And you knew if it was that day of the month, you were the person who would go to the door if any visitors came. And
Cindy:
Awesome.
Lisa Lande:
they self-regulate. The teachers don't even talk about it anymore. It's just, oh, it's the fifth day of the month. I'm number five. If somebody comes today, it's gonna be my turn. And I just love that, that we watch this evolution of things grow. And I don't know if you caught that Russ said, that wasn't the idea of an adult in the school. It was the ideas of a student to say, how do we really welcome and include visitors when they pop in?
Cindy:
Well, your school is going to have a culture. Your classroom is going to have a culture. And you can be aware of that. You can be responsive to it, or you can just kind of let it happen. And what sounds so cool about all of this is that it's such an intentionality of what do we want this space to be for us? What does success mean for us? And then how do we make that come to life? Simple, but transformational.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, I will tell you that same school on that same visit just for a little bit of humor in our little conversation here. There was another little guy who came up and introduced himself to Russ and there was actually a quote of Russ's painted on the wall by where we were having a conversation. And the teacher says to him, do you know who you're talking to? Like that's his quote there on the wall and the kid looked at the wall and looked back at Russ and said, Wow, I thought to have something on the wall, you had to be dead. And he was like, no, I'm still alive. Here I am.
Cindy:
sobering moments from children.
Russ:
Yeah,
Cindy:
Ha ha ha.
Russ:
oh, yes. Oh, I'm getting closer by the minute, but yes, that was absolutely true.
Lisa Lande:
Thank you.
Getting everyone on the same page, defining voice (45:19)
Cindy:
So fun. All right, so I'm curious, I'm about to do some work with a school and I really wanna work with them on the concept of voice. And I'm curious what you think. Should every school come up with their own definition of voice together? Is it a worthwhile exercise to do that? Or do you say, just use our definition, unpack it for yourselves? Like what is a more worthwhile exercise?
Russ:
I have my bias, but I would say use our definition and the reason being it's not because it's our definition It's really the definitions of 40 plus years of working in schools that this is evolved and people say oh, I love your definition I go it's not my definition. I go granted the quality Institute's kind of wrapped its arms around it But it's really a collective definition the reason I like that definition to stop from Cindy is that we all need to speak a common language. It raises the expectations where I'm thinking for the good of the whole, I'm offering realistic suggestions, I'm accepting responsibility. Because if we don't have that conversation that everybody's all over the place, and then voice turns into noise, it turns into complaints. One of the challenges, and I guess this is a good thing, and then it becomes a challenge, is that definition isn't just one that needs to be understood and accepted by the leadership of the school. It needs to be understood and accepted by the students by the parents by the school board I was a former administrator and I remember one of my greatest lies of all time is when I would get up in front Of parents, you know the first couple weeks of school and tell them how excited I was to see them I clearly was never excited to see parents and I would say to them my door is always open I want you to come visit me and tell me what you think I clearly in my heart did not want to hear what they had to think or say because They thought for their, at least just put your head down in shame. Because they only thought about their kid. They only complained about one thing that I was supposed to fix. However, when we're working in schools now, I urge school leaders to say, you want to promote parent voice, but you've got to promote parent voice in the definition that is acceptable to you. If I had parents that shared honest and open opinions with me, that thought for the good of the whole. that were realistic and wasn't expecting me to fix something, but we're going to do it together. Oh, I'd be begging them for their voice rather than fake begging them for their voice. So going back to your point, I think they need to have a definition that they can all understand and apply. And then they can tweak from there. I like the notion of here are the three major components of voice. I mean, we've got data of the ding dong that talks about it, that supports why we ended up on these three. And then unpack it. Like how can we operationalize this? What makes sense and how can we modify it?
Cindy:
What does it look like?
Russ:
Yeah, what does it look like here? Because every school has their own DNA. But you know, that's the strand that I think will tie everything together.
Lisa Lande:
And I think I'm packing it not just at each individual school, but in each individual classroom. We have some lessons that we provide to schools who are really getting serious about this work that helps them to go through that exact process, to take the three-part voice definition, but then really talk about it with students. It's not just about hanging up a nice poster that shows these three, but what does it really mean to you? What does it look like? What are examples? What are actions and ways that you can live that out? And even within a school, it will change and vary how they're defining or putting that into play from classroom to classroom or grade level to grade level. Or even, I had a great example near the end of this school year, I was doing some work with a group of counselors and we were in the counseling office and a girl came just like blowing in hot. She was really upset, a middle school girl about something. And then she kind of stopped and she looked at all the counselors and they did have it posted this definition and stuff and she said, hold on, I don't have any... realistic suggestions to offer yet. And she kind of went down and huffed and sat in the corner and she needed to think for a minute. And then she came back over the group and she's like, okay, I'm ready. She said, I have some ideas, but I don't know what actions I could take yet. So I'm gonna need help with that part. And I was just like, I
Cindy:
Yes!
Lisa Lande:
felt like it was such a mic drop moment. Like I can just leave this school
Cindy:
I'm out.
Lisa Lande:
because they are, yeah, they are living it so well that she came in, she knew she was just about ready to complain about something. So she stopped herself and said, this is the expectation here. She knew that if she just complained to her counselor, the counselor was gonna say, well, what ideas do you have? And she didn't have any yet. But I also love that she didn't have to do it all by herself. She was saying, I don't know what action I can take. That's where I need your help. And man, that was such a powerful moment.
Are voice and agency the same thing? (50:01)
Cindy:
such a tool for self-regulation. So as opposed to just gossiping or complaining, it becomes, okay, let's look at this together. What part of this do you need support with now? That's cool. So voice is kind of a newer concept for me. And really my attention got drawn to it when the IB released their definition for agency. And in the center of the new framework for the PYP, it was agency, voice, choice, ownership. Right? So I guess I'm curious to hear from you all. Like, do you see voice as being synonymous with agency and choice and ownership? Does it stand alone? Does it compliment them? What's the relationship between those concepts?
Russ:
Lisa, I can see you in your, I can see your eyes looking through me and I can also read your mind. So Cindy, I'm just gonna
Lisa Lande:
I'm
Russ:
say
Lisa Lande:
sorry.
Russ:
what I'm gonna say. I think it's voice. I think it's all voice. I think agency is a made up educational word that not a frigging soul can explain to anybody. When I talk about parents, about kids having agency, they think they're being recruited by the CIA. It's just, it's just. It's a stupid word. And there are many stupid words we use in education, but I don't get it. I want to use words that little ones can understand about voice, that big ones can understand about voice. The term agency, yeah, it talks about leadership and ownership, but our definition, and again, this isn't a self promotion about our definition, but the definition when we talk about voice has all that in it. I just, when I deal with this, I'm telling you, at least we'll tell you, I deal with this constantly that feels like. Well, is it like agency? I'm like, what is it with agency? It's like, well, it's a word that the government uses. It's because they don't know any of the words. They have to make up words to make it look like they're being paid to do something. It's voice, it's flipping
Lisa Lande:
Thank you.
Russ:
voice. Voices get a few components
Cindy:
Mmm.
Russ:
that includes agency. But this notion of agency, choice and options, it's just like, I don't know. It's like, we just make stuff up because we can. We complicate things in education because we can. I am a firm believer. Keep it simple. Make it so everyone understands it. Okay, that was such a bad rant. Lisa, now bail me out because I've just alienated every reason for agency.
Lisa Lande:
So we now have bad cop, good cop just a little bit. Honestly though, I actually agree with Russ. I think we do make things so complicated
Cindy:
Mm.
Lisa Lande:
that then it really becomes a barrier to successful implementation. Because then, I see it in all the documents. We do a lot of work in Australia. They also have a big piece that's around agency and their guiding documents in state of Victoria and other places. But then when we go to implement, we're talking with teachers and they're like, well, wait a minute, are we working on agency right now? Are we working on
Cindy:
Hmm.
Lisa Lande:
leadership right now? And things become kind of siloed out. And so I think part of the power of having this one all encompassing definition of voice is that it simplifies it and it just takes away some of those distractors when we're working on implementation. Now, I believe that our definition and the way we approach voice includes agency in a very strong way. the actual 17 different definitions I have read of agency. I think it includes leadership in a very meaningful way and decision-making and all of those things. So we're not quipping that any of those things are unimportant. We're advocating for a more simplified way of looking at all of those things under one umbrella that supports schools and then meaningfully implementing the concepts that we're after.
Cindy:
That makes sense
Russ:
very
Cindy:
to me.
Russ:
well said Lisa.
Cindy:
I think where
Russ:
Thank you
Cindy:
I
Russ:
for
Cindy:
differ.
Russ:
making me look good.
Lisa Lande:
I'm sorry.
Cindy:
I'm curious how you'd respond to this because I'm, I'm an agency nerd. Yeah. I did. I've read all of Bandura's stuff from 76 on, right?
Lisa Lande:
Yeah.
Cindy:
And my favorite definition I've come across for agency is that it is the capacity to make a difference. That if I have agency, then I have like the skill sets, the mindsets that I need to either learn or change or grow or do anything. And to me, so much of what you've talked about in voice undergirds that it's a skill set, so I don't know. I don't
Lisa Lande:
Yeah.
Cindy:
know if that. changes
Russ:
No,
Cindy:
your thought at all, but.
Russ:
no, well, I can respond to that. So I 100% agree with you, Cindy, and I am very proud to say, which will show even more of my age, that the gray hair, the beard doesn't, Bandura was one of my people that worked with me around my whole notion of voice and aspirations. What is it, what
Cindy:
Nuh-uh!
Russ:
am I great? Yes, one of my greatest moments was
Cindy:
Dude,
Russ:
one of my, no,
Cindy:
stories.
Russ’s work with Bandura (54:35)
Russ:
it was one of my first moments. You'll find this funny. So obviously read about Bandura and I had an opportunity. where I went to grad school to present at AERA, the American Educational Research Association, who quite frankly probably haven't seen a kid in 400 years. But I was doing my due diligence as a young doctoral student and presented out there and my advisor, new Albert, introduced me to Professor Bandura. So we had this whole thing set up and in my head, and again, this was close to 40 years ago, in my head I had this Superman mentality, Oh my God, he's just gonna be some stud up there. And just like this halo around him, we met in a park outside of San Francisco. And there was this, and I say this with all due respect, being one now myself, this old guy just sitting on a park bench like this, licking his ice cream cone. And I'm looking around looking for Superman. I didn't see any capes. And I said, excuse me, you Professor Bandura? He looks up, he goes, sure am. Just like that. It was classic. It just blew me away. I think what blew me away was his humbleness and his care. And he, I still have his note where he says, I'm gonna make it someday. And I'm like, and you know, I'm 27, 28 years old saying, yeah, coming from you, I'm never gonna make anything. But I'll never forget that moment
Cindy:
Ugh.
Russ:
when he wrote to me afterwards. But I would share his work. So I share that story. Because people like Bandura and Howard Gardner, Chick St. Mahai, I've been blessed to work with them, learn from them, not work with them, but certainly learn from them. And every single one of them has influenced my work profoundly, I mean profoundly. So when I hear you make that connectedness, I'm like, oh, that's exactly right. Because that's the roots that I'm from. And took that work and modified it, I think, I hope, to be more applicable in schools. Um, so yeah, I,
Cindy:
Mm.
Russ:
I get the self-efficacy. I get all that stuff and I love that stuff. I mean, that's, that's my roots. But I was trying to get this to a point where it's applicable in schools. Lisa will tell you I am a
Cindy:
accessible.
Russ:
firm. Yeah. Accessible and understandable. I, I over-simplify things probably, but my goal is just, just keep it simple so people can understand and respect it and own it. I can't own stuff. I don't understand. I can't own stuff that is talking over here. I know that really upset some researchers out there, but I've got a decent background and had a relatively good education. So I think I can hold my own with most researchers, but I also know that it means nothing if it's not applicable or understandable to a five-year-old. I honestly believe that.
Russ’s “not” conference (57:29)
Lisa Lande:
And one of the things that we haven't hit yet on in our conversation is that all of that thinking and the people that Russ was blessed to learn from and with and he's very humble about that, but he has had incredible opportunities to work with almost every giant I can think of that informed my thinking in this field is that it. it boiled down into this framework that we follow at the Institute that focuses on three guiding principles of self-worth, engagement, and purpose. And particularly when we get into the work of purpose, that is very much driven by the definition of agency that you just shared, and by the work of Bendora and Bill Damon and a whole bunch of others who have really contributed to that. And it's interesting because purpose has always been part of our framework at the Institute, but in the last few years it has become even more important. Of course, we always start with self-worth. We have to feel safe, know you belong, all of those things. We then move into engagement, and are we really meaningfully engaged in the classroom and the learning that's happening at school? And purpose really becomes to what you are connecting to. Are you ready to go out and make a difference in the world? Do you have the confidence to take action, to go out and make that difference? And we have people who have been trying to get Russ to do a conference for years and years and years, and he has always said no. I don't know why, he has just never wanted to do a conference. But especially the work that we've been doing with the international community over the last few years and the continuing, you know, things that we're dealing with as a result of isolation and lost learning and all those things that were a natural part of the COVID experience, we finally, I don't know how it happened. So Russ, you can maybe tell the story, but Russ is finally putting on a conference and the whole theme is around passion and
Cindy:
Ugh.
Lisa Lande:
purpose. And I think that Cindy gets back to again, where you were going with, are we ready to make a difference in the world? Russ would you be willing to share just a little bit more about what's led you to this place of circling back to purpose as being so foundational?
Russ:
Well, the truth is Cindy they broke me. I was so tired of being asked and I Said this is what I said. This is the God's honest truth. I said there is no way we're putting on a conference I said I don't even like the conference word I don't want to call it an unconference because I think that's too hokey. I said I will support a learning summit But I don't want it to be like every learning summit conference out there. It's got to be different and I said After this whole COVID thing, and I'm not even sure if it's an after thing of COVID, because I still think we're living it right now, I said, we're losing teachers, we're losing that drive, we're losing kids. I said, here's what we need to do. We need to get back and reflect on our purpose. People are leaving the profession because they've lost sight of their purpose. Kids are dropping out of school, not because there's other things out there to do, it's because they've lost their purpose. Like why am I even there? So... I said, what if we did something like this? That we have the first evening, and I'm gonna talk about the importance of purpose and what that really means. Again, coming from the work of Bandura and Bill Daemon, all these rock stars out there that I've learned from, and say, this is what we need. We need to start reflecting, not finding it, because I don't think we've ever lost it, but sometimes it's just, it's out there. So let's reflect on that purpose. Then the second day is not gonna be a bunch of mumbo jumbo, and I say this with all due respect to people that do mumbo jumbo. It's not more curriculum stuff. It's not about math your way. I mean, it's none of that stuff. I want to Reignite that passion. I wanted we have artists coming in for the second day. There's no talk about curriculums There's no talk about math or socials anything like testing them. No We have an artist coming in that's going to teach people to think about something that inspired them to write and do their own Stamping like literally stamps carving we have someone coming in from India that's working with the spices like the olfactory system, what does spices make you think to come up with their own recipes? We have a storyteller coming in from Brazil so people can share a story about what that means in their lives to create more passion. So day two is all about those three components of artists. We bring in an artist, not, and to me, they're the greatest educators on the planet, but artists. And then the last day is someone that I know, Peter DeWitt, who I have just profound respect for, to bring it all together and say, We've heard about purpose. You kind of reflected and renewed your passion. Now let's put it into action. So if this goes the way I think it's gonna go in my head, it's gonna be unbelievable. If not, it's gonna be my first and last summit I'll ever do. But there are other cool things. It's
Lisa Lande:
I'm going to go to bed.
Russ:
in Dubai, which is a pretty funky place to do one.
Cindy:
Cool.
Russ:
We've got, we're all coming together actually, the Lisa's part that she shared with you earlier. The team's coming together in August here at my camp. Hopefully it'll be above 50 degrees, because right now it's not. And
Cindy:
Oh.
Russ:
have a conversation about what it means. And so anyway, I didn't mean to go off on that tangent, but I think in education, we need to do things differently. And I think we need to think differently. I think we need to be more reflective. I think we need to think about why I even became an educator and what does it take to renew my passion? Because I think if people have purpose
Cindy:
Mm.
Russ:
and they have passion, it's gonna take us to a whole new level. Because I believe purpose and passion is contagious. That's just what Chick St. Mahai writes about in his book, Flow, about this whole notion of that flow experience. The psychology of an optimal experience is losing track of time and space. And I think our very best educators
Cindy:
Yes.
Russ:
and our very best students in the world lose track of time and space while they're learning and teaching.
Cindy:
And how do we create schools in which that is the norm, in which flow and purpose are driving the bus and the curriculum sits within that, but it's this much and the purpose and the flow are what's around it. Oh, I just love that.
Lisa Lande:
Yeah, I think it's the passion and the purpose driving what happens in instruction and systems versus the other way, trying to have a system and a structure and curriculum and all those things, and then hoping we find a shred of purpose and passion within
Cindy:
on the edges.
Lisa Lande:
that. Yeah.
Cindy:
Yeah.
Russ:
Yeah.
Cindy:
Very, very cool, guys. Yeah, you know, I had this whole list of questions all written out for you and I don't think I stuck to my list at all. I just went off book and
Lisa Lande:
Thank
Cindy:
off of all the things
Lisa Lande:
you.
1
Cindy:
amazing. Well, both of you, this is my second time getting to talk with you and I just feel so privileged and honored each time. The work that you do to influence the culture of schools and really give practical ways that we can create the kinds of cultures that we want to see, I think it's just so powerful and I really appreciate the time you've given to our audience.
Lisa Lande:
Well, thanks for asking and for the upbeat positive energy by with which you lead. You're always a joy to speak with.
Russ:
Yeah,
Cindy:
guys.
Russ:
thank you, Sydney. And you're so welcome, Sydney. And I am so impressed. And I don't say this lightly, because Lisa will say he does not hand out compliments like they mean nothing. I'm so impressed with the homework that you do and the preparedness you do to make this work for all of us. So I appreciate you and what you do and getting the word out there. So thank you.
Cindy:
Oh, thanks so much, guys.
Lisa Lande:
Thank you.
