Highlights (00:00)
Trevor:
If we want students to be curious, if we want students to be reflective, if we want students to think about their thinking, leaders need to model that for their staff. And of course, so often when we attend staff meetings or professional development, the opposite occurs. It's teachers sit for an hour and they go through an agenda and it's a sit-and-get. And then at the end of the meeting, we talk about how we're an inquiry-based school, or at the front of our building it says we value inquiry and agency and curiosity. And teachers are like, well, that's not aligned. Undeniably teachers will revert back to their leadership. So some of those traditional data sets, you know, the report card, you know the portfolio, those are very helpful.
–But gosh, the richest data we get from our students, Is from our students themselves. Time is a theme, isn't it? Um, for faculties to come together and teams to come together. And for you and I to sit down and talk about our learners, leaders need to give their teachers some time to have these rich conversations that reflect the values of the school.
–How are our schools operating to support the things we value? If we value student-centered assessment? If we value student growth, how does our assessment calendar, for example, reflect that? I visited some schools around the world who I won't go in and train teachers and student-centered assessment practices until they change their assessment calendar. I have to be frank, because of their assessment calendar, you know what their assessment calendar communicates to everyone who looks at it. It says performance, performance, performance, performance, performance. So
Cindy:
This shift from assessment is something I do to you versus assessment is something that we do together and there's purpose and intention behind it. And that purpose is your curiosity in taking it further.
Trevor:
Yeah, absolutely. And, and there are some really, you know, specific scaffolded steps that we can take to include our students in this conversation.
[Music + Intro animation]
Introduction (02:03)
Cindy:
Welcome to School Leaders Project, a podcast series dedicated to helping school leaders make positive changes in their schools and communities. In every episode, we'll talk to extraordinary thinkers and doers who will share their experiments and experiences with teaching and learning.
In today's episode, we talk to the amazing Trevor Mackenzie. Trevor is not only an awesome author and teacher and creator of school cultures of assessment, but he's somebody I deeply admire and respect. In today's episode, Trevor talks all about creating student-centered assessments and the why behind them.
He also digs into our practice and how we can humanize assessment to make sure that it really aligns with what we believe about how children learn best. And finally, he talks about extinct assessment practices and how we can help teachers avoid these as leaders. Throughout the episode, Trevor invites us and challenges us to think about our practice through the lens of empathy and our values, and to give time to the things that matter most.
I know you're gonna love this episode, so without further ado, buckle up, get excited, and let's jump in.
Cindy:
All right, Trevor, I am so excited to have you here on the first-ever episode of the School Leaders Project, so thank you so much for being here.
Trevor:
Thank you. It's an honor. What an honor. This is exciting. So this will be a lot of fun. Thank you for the invitation and uh, I'm looking forward to the conversation with you.
Cindy:
Ah, me too, always.
About Trevor MacKenzie (03:32)
So, Trevor, will you set the stage for us? What is the work that you do? What are you most passionate about and why?
Trevor:
Uh, I'm, I'm really passionate about curiosity, wonder, awe, you know, us being inquisitive, and when I say “us”, I mean learners and teachers and all stakeholders in schools around the world. So I'm very keen on curiosity, and I'm very much interested in getting interrogative about our teaching practice.
Why do we do the things we do? Um, what are our blind spots, our shadow spaces as teachers, and are we truly doing the best thing for our students are we truly listening to our students and connecting and collaborating and, and partnering with them? So I think, in a nutshell, or if we were to put that in a bowl, it would fall in, a constructivist bowl, an inquiry-based learning bowl.
So I am an inquiry practitioner and author and teacher, and so, I'm very interested in curiosity and reflecting on our teaching practice.
Cindy:
And I like the balance that you are still in the classroom, so can you just give context? You're in the classroom and an author, so how does that all work?
Trevor:
I'm often asked that ‘How do you do all the things, Trevor?’ Um, I, so I am a teacher. I am a high school teacher in Victoria, British Columbia Canada. I'm in my 20th year of teaching, and I have to admit, I, I love both worlds of teaching teachers and, and teaching students. So I've been really stubborn in keeping a foot firmly planted in both areas.
Um, and quite a number of years ago, I started to speak about my teaching, share my speaking more broadly, you know, blogging and, and tweeting and, and then slowly speaking at conferences kind of regionally and across Canada. And then that led to publications and research and, and more consulting, more visiting schools around the world who have similar values around inquiry and constructivism and curiosity. So this particular year is the first year where I've reduced my teaching load to halftime. So I teach afternoons, which just feels so strange to teach less, but that's enabling me to teach teachers more and to work more with the schools that I partner with around the world.
So as we know, it's, it's a balance of teaching teachers and teaching students. But goodness, it's one that I certainly adore and appreciate and I'm grateful for it. I'd feel really awkward talking about something that I haven't tried on for myself for size with my own scholars. So a lot of the work I do is of course, if it's a questioning protocol, well, it's a questioning protocol that I've tried with my students, isn't it? So, um, walking the walk and talking the talk is something that I deeply value.
Cindy:
Well, and your Instagram is fire. So like leaders out there, if you're looking for examples of these things in action in a classroom, Trevor's Insta is wild.
Trevor:
Thank you. I do enjoy sharing and my students know that's been, uh, a huge revealing for the kids the last number of years is that I do share our learning with their permission and consent to teachers and leaders around the world. So thanks Cindy for that shout-out. That's greatly appreciated.
Cindy:
So in this conversation today, Trevor, I really wanna hone in on assessment. So you just wrote the book on inquiry-driven assessment, and I wanna think about leaders and how we create that space. So first of all, do you prefer the term student-centered assessment or inquiry-driven assessment, or do you use them both?
Trevor:
Yeah, I use them both, uh, rather interchangeably, but I, I think at the heart we're talking about student-centered assessment, so I don't want teachers and leaders to get confused around what inquiry-based assessment is. The two are quite synonymous, so I use them both interchangeably.
What is student-centered assessment? (07:20)
Cindy:
Thanks for clarifying. Can you explain to our audience what exactly is student-centered assessment and why is it so important?
Trevor:
Well, I, I'll give you a bit of a problem statement, a little bit of a problem scenario that I've seen over the course of this work in supporting schools to implement inquiry-based learning around the world, and, and that is when we survey kids and we survey a lot of kids, we survey hundreds of kids.
When we survey kids about curiosity, they tell us, uh, some amazing things. And so curiosity is a byproduct of inquiry. If, if we're teaching from an inquiry stance and planning for inquiry, we're going to have more curious kids. And so when we survey kids, we ask them to tell us out of 10, a curiosity scale, one to 10.
How curious are you about your learning? When they tell us an eight, nine, or 10 out of 10, that means they're really curious. There are some amazing points of data that correlate to so when we have kids who are really curious, we see achievement grades, improve, kids do better in classes where they're more curious.
We also see an improvement in attendance. So kids not only attend school more readily, they attend school more often. So, you know, again, if they're interested in the learning, if they're curious about what they're learning about, they're going to come to class.
Um, the third piece is when we survey kids and we ask them questions about Inquiry - questions about their learning. They tell us the darndest things, Cindy, they tell us when I'm curious. I enjoy school. Um, school is a place of belonging, school is a place of safety, of trust. I trust my teachers. I trust my peers. I love all of those things. Simultaneously, when we question them about assessment, they tell us a completely different scenario and completely different feelings. When we ask 'em about the learning, they say the learning is enjoyable.
When we ask 'em about assessment, they say things like assessment causes me stress, assessment causes me anxiety, assessment causes me uncertainty.
And, so, you know what, I did this, this was fascinating data. When I started to see this data roll out over the course of a number of years, I took the exact same survey and I brought it to my students in my classroom. And, I asked them the exact same questions and I was curious, would they say the same things around assessment and inquiry that other students were saying at other schools around the world? And they in fact said different things. They said, um, assessment informs my learning, their words, not mine. They said, um, assessment guides my next steps.
You know, one question we ask students is, is assessment a teacher job, a student job, or an ‘us’ job? And the students on the survey at these schools around the world would say that- that's a teacher's job. Where my students would say, that's an ‘us’ job. And I. Well, this is telling what am I doing in my assessment practice that I'm not seeing at the schools I'm supporting, and how could I support these schools in not just engaging in inquiry, but flattening the landscape of their assessment practice to include more student voice, more student understanding. And to be honest, we want assessment-capable kids. I, I love that phrase. Isn't that beautiful, Cindy? How do we create the conditions for our students to become more assessment capable? So that's why I wrote that one publication Inquiry Mindset Assessment Edition is to show teachers how to engage in more student-centered assessment practices.
So their inquiry experience and their assessment experience are beautifully woven together rather than kind of misaligned and or the assessment is a ‘them’ thing. Whereas inquiry is really meaningful and rich in agency, and I belong in inquiry, assessment is a ‘teacher job’. So that's been the driving force to bringing more assessment conversations into the inquiry classroom and my work, not just with my students, but with schools that I support around the world.
Cindy:
So this shift from assessment is something I do to you versus assessment is something that we do together and there's purpose and intention behind it, and that purpose is your curiosity in taking it.
Trevor:
Yeah, absolutely. And, and there are some really, you know, specific scaffolded steps that we can take to include our students in this conversation more. I, I'm not proposing that we relinquish control over assessment. Um, as a misconception. You know, inquiry means kids have entire control over their learning. We know that's not the case. It's mirrored in the assessment practice as well. There's scaffolding, there's intentionality, there's some planning that's involved with regards to how do we build assessment-capable students across a span of time.
The Power of Co-designing Success Criteria (11:58)
Cindy:
I'm glad you addressed that because I think that's a common misconception in this space is so we don't have success criteria anymore. What about the standards that we're held to?
Trevor:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a- that's a question I face all the, and I'm sure you do as well, Cindy, in your work, it's, well, what about the standards? How, how do you, how do you include student voice and assessment when we have these really clear success criteria that we have to teach towards? And gosh, I, I love success criteria. I love rubrics that are mandated to us. I, I, they're so helpful, but I don't just drop those on the learning. I don't just smack those on top of the students.
I, I tuck those aside and I use them as a blueprint to a co-designing conversation, activity experience where I ask students questions and we gather together: success criteria from prior knowledge from exemplars and, and the holes that are left in that conversation are the holes that I fill with my assessment expertise and that blueprint that I'm mandated to use.
So eventually we create a rubric that looks a lot similar to the rubric I have to use, but that was built with student understanding, student voice, student belonging. And student-friendly language. Which undeniably means they're going to do better using that rubric than any rubric. I just hand to them because we spent time building it together.
It's, it's their language, it's their understanding. My job is to make sure that those two rubrics are pretty aligned, isn't it? The blueprint and the rubric we build, they have to look, sound, and feel, and serve a really similar purpose in terms of the assessment intent. That's time well spent, It is beautiful time spent with students when we build those rubrics, those success criteria together.
So one part that we're talking about Sydnee is breaking down the misconception. Another one is, well, how do we do it, Trevor, if that's not the way, then what does it look like in practice? And so that little experience I just spoke to you about, that's something we train schools in. We train teachers in co-designing success criteria with scholars.
Cindy:
Well, it sounds like it takes a high level of expertise, but in a way, it would become almost natural as you acquired that skillset. Like, of course, we're gonna build this with students. We're not just gonna give it to them in the end.
Trevor:
Yeah, and you know, I, I don't want people listening to think that's a- that's a Trevor thing or that's a Cindy thing. They could do that. I can never do that. We can all engage in these conversations with our students. We can all ask particular questions. We can all listen and build together. That is a flipping of the hierarchy of many classrooms around the world where teachers are giving assessments to kids.
Kids are doing the assessments. Giving them back to teachers and we grade them. It is really changing the landscape of how we engage with our scholars, but that is at the heart of inquiry, isn't it? Is that we partner with students, we ask, we listen, we build together. We want our assessment practices to mirror those things. If that's what we value in inquiry, then of course our assessment experiences have to mirror that as well.
Cindy:
Awesome.
The 90-10 Balance (14:54)
Cindy:
One, I'd love to bring in a question from our Facebook group. So this comes from Amber. And I think it addresses kind of this elephant in the room that a lot of us have these beliefs about assessment, but then in comes a standardized test or incomes a summit of assessment. And it feels like the pressure kind of goes up for those, and that's where all the focus goes for students and for families. So how do you balance having those assessments but also valuing kind of the entire process?
Trevor:
Yeah, well, those assessments, I, I, I don't, I don't undervalue those. I, I don't not do them with my scholars. They're very important. That data is, is critical. Um, those data points, you know, any data that we can collect from a large body of students where we can make some. Some assumptions. We can analyze them, we can compare them across a large dataset. That's important. But the, the other set of data holds great importance as well.
You know, the color, the qualitative, the conferencing, the evidencing, the feedback. And so what we propose in schools that are engaged in inquiry is striking a more powerful balance between our summatives and our formatives. Between those really, really high stake standardized tests and our rich formative feedback, coaching, and conferencing. Undeniably, we don't wanna get our kids ready for standardized tests by giving them more standardized.
You know, and, and, and that's that, that can be really hard for some teachers to hear. We want them to engage in more test prep practice tests to get them ready for the high-stakes tests. The opposite is actually true. We wanna take them to performances less often and get them into coaching mode more often.
We wanna provide opportunities for reflection, assessment capable opportunities where they're understanding where they're. Where they need to go and what steps they need to take to get there. And if we can live in what Guy Clarkson calls learning mode more often and performance mode less, undeniably, our students are gonna do better on those standardized assessments.
I have to be honest- like the balance I poke teachers that get to is kind of a 90/10 balance, 90% informative. 10% in summative, and sometimes teachers think, how is that possible? Well, I asked schools and school leaders, how many times are teachers mandated to do a standardized assessment. How, how many times across their assessment calendar do they have to do an assessment like that?
What are the musts? And to be honest, if we know the feedback, the conferencing, the formative are richer to guide the next steps, then let's live there more often than the standardized pieces. So the 90/10 split, I know it's not a split, it's a ratio is really, well, what are the non-negotiables? And let's do those and those alone. So numbers aren't guiding learning. The formative, the conversations, the qualitative is guiding the learning. Does that make sense, Cindy?
Cindy:
Totally. And I think the,- some of the language I'd like to call out there that leaders could use with, with tricky families is the idea of, it's a dataset and this is a relevant piece of data, but it is just one piece in this entire collection that we've curated.
Trevor:
Absolutely. And, you know, looking at some of the research around what those data sets do to guide student learning, does a number guide student learning, or does the formative and the qualitative guide student learning? So if we are about improving those data sets, improving those numbers, then we have to live in more opportunity for coaching, reflection, and guiding the next steps- which again, that's that 90% space. Yes. And 10% is that quantitative-quantitative.
Extinct Assessment Practices (18:35)
Cindy:
Amazing. All right, so our audience is mostly leaders, so I'm curious, what do you think that every leader should know, understand and do in terms of student-centered assessment?
Trevor:
Well, I'd, I'd love for leaders to talk about extinct assessment practices, like really clearly talk to a staff, their faculty about what, what we don't do anymore. And, and I, I love that language. It's really liberating to. For a teacher to hear that from a leader, we don't assess that way anymore. Yes, there are certain things that we maybe did five years ago or 20 years ago, and now we know best practice. We know. The research tells us that those things don't guide learning and don't propel students in terms of growth.
So some things I hear leaders say- that some things I nudge leaders to say- for example, is ‘we don't take the average of marks’. We don't take the average of numbers anymore and we don't plunk them into a system. And outcomes an average. An average does not tell a representation of a student's learning across time.
In fact, the most recent data point could take precedence over all those other data points across the span of time. And I know for some teachers they can, they, they, they hear that, oh, thank goodness. That's so liberating. Then we look at our grade book. How do we manage a grade book that honors the most recent dataset compared to all the previous attempts for learning?
Gosh, we rely on our professional judgment, don't we? Our professional responsibility and expertise. I want leaders to say that in front of staff as well. I trust your professional assessment expertise. I trust that you're gonna make the decisions that are going to inform students and guardians of where students are at and what their next steps are.
So that would be something that I would say is an, is an extinct assessment practice as. Averaging out learning across time and honoring the most recent learning, the most recent dataset as representative of where our students are at now. Um, another piece is living in the formative and not living in the summative.
I referenced this a little bit earlier, Cindy, but mm-hmm. Any time the research tells us, anytime we put a number on evidence of learning. And we attach feedback to that number and that evidence of learning. Students will not look at the feedback. They'll only look at the number. This should be a non-negotiable in schools, if you're giving feedback, it is detached of a number. Numbers and feedback cannot coexist. They have to be separated. Teachers undeniably want to gather numbers because it fits beautifully in the grade book. It fits beautifully in the spreadsheet. It's the feedback that will drive the learning, and it's the feedback that will propel the learning. The number will shut down the learning. I wanna hear leaders say that aloud. To, to, to teachers. You don't have to gather numbers all day long. Instead, live informative, live in feedback more often and detach the two. The feedback from the number. These are assessment truths, these are best practices. Many teachers, they won't do them unless they hear a leader speak to them and say, this is the space that we're in now. That way, doing it, we don't do anymore. Um, now we engage in these practices that we know are good for kids, that we know are good for propelling learning moving forward.
Modernizing Reporting Processes (21:50)
Cindy:
So for reporting, would you advocate for just a feedback-only report card or like how do you make that jump from only feedback to scoring with a number? And then I think that comes back to that question about parents. Like if parents are seeing a number on a report card, yeah. How do we convince them that that's not the most important thing?
Trevor:
Yeah, let me paint a beautiful picture for you. In, in my province right now in British Columbia, Canada, I know I'm gonna have all these people sending me messages, DMs, and requests I wanna come to, I wanna come to British Columbia.
It's a fascinating place to be a teacher and to have, uh, sons that are students in public education here, K-9. We've gone grade-less K-9 students only receive qualitative. It's like rich feedback. There's a performance scale. It is, it the, the amount of feedback and color we get on report cards as parents.
It's just, it's so beautiful to see that my son's teachers know them so well. So that's that's lovely, isn't it? Wow. Can't we all get there? You know what happens? Come grade 10. You know what happens when my son next year comes to my high school, he all of a sudden gets this rich feedback and he gets a number, and so the professional responsibility on the educator is to, how do I provide the feedback and then turn all that feedback into a number at the end of the day on a report card.
You know how I do that? Is I sit with students one-on-one. We look at the portfolio, we look at the evidence, we look at all the feedback, and we pick a number together. And when we talk about assessment-capable kids, they should be able to have that conversation openly, honestly, confidently, and be able.
Pick a number that is somewhat aligned with the number that I've been assessing throughout our time together. We should be able to agree on a number. It's not a debate, it's not a, a, a, an assessment, um, what do you call it? An assessment, uh, proposal. They're not trying to convince me that they deserve a mark.
It's that we're looking at the rich body of work, the rich evidence. And my feedback throughout learning and we're deciding on a number together, isn't that, uh, a friendly experience, a kind experience, a compassionate experience, an equitable experience. I, I love having those conversations with kids. Now, that's the landscape of British Columbia.
That's, you know, K-9 grade-less; high school - we have to do both. Gosh, can't we do those practices in every circumstance in every school around the world? Can't we sit with kids? Talk about the evidence of learning and come up with a number together. Absolutely we can. Again, it's a reframe of how we spend time with kids.
Initially, I said we want it not to be a teacher's job. We want it to be a, an ‘us’ job, an assessment conference where we're talking about a report card and writing it somewhat together and picking a number together. That would be a, an amazing kind of, um, direction for schools around the world to go.
Cindy:
I adore that.I always felt that tension as a teacher. It just felt so random to put a number at the end. So that's what a viable solution to that.
Trevor:
Random And, and so what makes us feel better is when our grade book spits out an average like this really fine, you know, 72.6 and we say, yay! That's the number I'll put, but that averaging of numbers does not represent the richness and the color and the lived experience of our learners, of our scholars. Looking at the evidence, talking about the feedback, coaching, that conversation and coming up with a number together is much more realistic in terms of a representation of a student's growth and a student's learning.
Cindy:
Because it comes back to what is the point of this? It's not to judge a kid or make them feel shame. It's to help them grow and the process that you've outlined is - that's - the sole intention there.
Trevor:
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I can anticipate what some leaders who may be listening to this conversation, Cindy, are thinking like, how do we remove bias from those conversations, Trevor? How do we make sure that all teachers are somewhat equal in their conversation so that all parents who know this practice is going on can trust that the conversation is equitable and fair, and actually getting their students to a place where everyone feels happy and content?
When I first started this practice, I had similar concerns. I thought to myself, how am I gonna be unbiased with some of my students that drive me nuts, that drive me bonkers? How am I gonna sit down patiently and really be unbiased in those circumstances? You know what I did? I invited a colleague, I invited a neighbor or a faculty colleague and said, could you sit on a few of these conversations and just listen and gimme some feedback and let me know if you felt like I was out of line or off track, or I wasn't being equitable, I wasn't being safe, or any kind of feedback. And we began to do these little rounds of kind of peer-reviewed assessment conferences. And it was so helpful for me to recognize my blind spots, to recognize my body language, to recognize my tone, to have a critical friend guide me through some of that practice. And so now that's something that schools that I support, that are engaged in this work, that's a step of the process is that they don't start by conferring with students one-on-one. They actually start by conferring with a student and a colleague coming in, or another student coming in for feedback around the experience in and of itself. Isn't that beautiful?
Cindy:
So beautiful. And like what a way to just double check for your clarity there and, and to make sure that. You're seeing the same picture across classrooms too. I'm thinking about in the elementary setting with specialists, like what does it look like in the home members, in the music class and, and what similarities and differences are we seeing and why.
Trevor:
Yeah. Yeah. That, that creates not just assessment equity, you know. All students in every grade and every classroom should have an equal opportunity to demonstrate success. And, and one way we do that is we create assessment transparency across classrooms. You know, my neighbor next door who teaches the exact same course, the exact same grade, the exact same curriculum, how can we be on the same page in terms of our assessment practices so a student can be in either class and have an equal opportunity to demonstrate success?
Well, we open up our assessment practice to one. We, we talk about our assessment, we assess together. So then when she leads a conference and I give her feedback, there's a direction that the school is taking that is somewhat uniform, that is somewhat equal for all students and stakeholders. And gosh, isn't it easy for a leader then to have those hard conversations with parents? If the leader can ensure that there's that level of equity across the staff, then those conversations with parents are so much more easily handled and experienced and, encountered.
Cindy:
Like any of our practices. If we're grounded in research and if we're being intentional, then the conversation, Kimberly Mitchell said, we shouldn't be brought to war. And I love that phrase that if we're intentional and there's research that backs us, then there's no reason ever for us to go to war on a stance that we have. Yeah. Love that.
Trevor:
I can't agree more. Yeah.
Leading an Assessment Culture (28:42)
Cindy:
I'd love to shift a little bit. So one of my big things is that leaders should model, model, model. So if we're thinking of student-centered assessment, what might it look like for a leader to model this, whether it's in strategic planning or growth, or how might leaders do this?
Trevor:
Yeah, well, my mind goes to two places right away. Let's start at the, the minutia first. The, the nuance and the, the often overlooked pieces that I think leaders should be aware of in terms of how they interact with teachers, and it's that they need to model the dispositions. We want teachers to be cultivating with their students. If, if we want students to be curious, if we want students to be reflective, if we want students to think about their thinking. Leaders need to model that for their staff. And of course, so often when we attend staff meetings or professional development, the opposite occurs. It's teachers sit for an hour and they go through an agenda and it's a sit and get. And then at the end of the meeting we talk about how we're an inquiry-based school, or at the front of our building it says we value inquiry and agency and curiosity. And teachers are like, well, that's not aligned. Undeniably, teachers will revert back to their leader. And so leaders modeling these dispositions, leaders living by them, that has such great traction to the growth of inquiry and, and student-centered assessment in a school.
You know, an easy example is, uh, a go back. I love a good go back, right, Cindy, where we're talking to a colleague, we're having a conversation and then we, we actually mindfully leave the conversation and then a day later or a couple days, days later, we go back to that same colleague. And we model the dispositions. We, we say something like, I was reflecting on our conversation yesterday and one thing you said really made me curious and I started to think about, and I'm wondering, what are your thoughts? You hear all that language I just used, I was reflecting. It made me curious. It got me thinking, and now I'm wondering. And I'm asking, I'm inviting them. Gosh, I, in that one interaction, I'm modeling so much that we want teachers to nurture for their scholars, with their scholars. So, goodness. I think of Linda Kaser and Judy Halbert's work with regards to leading, uh, an inquiry. I think of Jessica Vance's work in leading an inquiry. We have to model the model in terms of the dispositions.
The second piece I think of with your question, Cindy, and this is a big one. Structurally, how are our schools operating to support the things we value? If we value student-centered assessment? If we value student growth, how does our assessment calendar, for example, reflect that?
I visited some schools around the world who I won't go in and train teachers and student-centered assessment practices until they change their assessment calendar. I have to be frank, because their assessment calendar, you know what their assessment. Calendar communicates to everyone who looks at it. It says performance, performance, performance, performance, performance- every month there's some kind of high-stakes assessment. Why are we going to engage in student-centered assessment practices if every month students are being hit over the head with a high stake standardized assessment? I, we, we need to change our assessment calendar. So perhaps it's more in that 90/10 range that I referred to earlier. Maybe a high stake assessment rather than happening every month happens every term or every semester. And then that way teachers are liberated to live in that space of formative feedback of conferring and coaching. If they're not, then they're going to feel pressured to continue to give more standardized assessments, to give more numbers.
But if we can liberate some space to have students and teachers live in learning mode, again, as Guy Klaxton refers to it, then the assessment calendar is going to be freed up for those rich, standardized assessments that occur every semester or term as opposed to every three weeks or four weeks. Assessment calendar is a big one. There are many other structures that we engage in schools that I would say all teachers and staff engage in.
You know, another one, Cindy, and I'm sure you did this in your practice as well as parent-teacher, I. Or even better student-led conferences. I love student-led conferences, but can we really mandate what student-led conferences look like and sound like and feel like as leaders? Absolutely, we can. Does it have to be about the numbers? Does it have to be about the grades or can it be about the competencies, the portrait of a learner? Can it be about their evidence of learning? Can it be about walking their parents through the classroom and the story the classroom tells in terms. That the students experience. I love student-led conferences, but are student-led conferences about the learning or about the number? Right? Of course. It should be about the learning. And a leader has a big impact on creating that culture of what a student-led conference or a student led evening gala showcase could look like and sound like and feel like to ensure that it represents and it's reflective of the values of the school student-led, student-standard and inquiry-driven. Does that make sense?
Cindy:
I think that would be a lovely process for every administrator listening to go through is I think sometimes we stack things without thinking of it. Oh, for reading we're doing f and p testing, and for this, we're doing this testing. Make a calendar of exactly when all of these assessments are, and what is this communicating to families, what is this communicating to students about what we believe about assessment and does that mirror our assessment philosophy that we have written? Like, oof. That's some powerful stuff.
Trevor:
It, it's, it's not easy work, Cindy. Is it? It's not easy work to, to, you know, I referenced earlier calling a colleague into an assessment conference to help me with my blind spots. This is a very similar feeling for leaders to consider. Let's look at our assessment calendar and what is it communicating to those people that are looking at it. You know, another really clear indication for me is I wanna look at a school's Instagram. And I want to see what it communicates about the values of the school. If it's about the most recent scholarship, or the most recent award, or the most recent student application that got accepted to a big university, ooh. Then that's communicating to parents that that's what we're about at this school. But if it's communicating a richer experience, a student-led experience where every so often those experiences get them a scholarship or take them to a prestigious university, that's a very different communication of values than the awards, the scholarships, the Ivy League and I, I've seen schools around the world that those are the two stories. Right? And what story do we wanna write? As a leader, we wanna write the leader of the student experience and how student-centered it truly is, and not just having it be a vision statement above the entryway to a, to a school building, isn't it?
Leading through Empathetic Design (35:30)
Cindy:
Adore that. Another piece of it I hope to touch on is that as teachers, we’re in a continuous journey of growth as well. And oftentimes the models that we're using to assess teachers don't really alight with our school beliefs. So what would you see as being the best model for growing teachers in this student assessment model?
Trevor:
Well, I often see the strongest work being done by teachers who have critical friends or teams of teachers who, if we're talking about assessment, they actually talk about assessment. Like they, they get together and they bring evidence of learning and, and they pass it around the room. They talk about their assessment tensions and how they can soften those tensions.
You know, one thing that we recently engaged in at my school was the tension around due date. You know, some teachers were feeling like, gosh, I can't get my kids to get some of them to get their work done by the due date. And, and we had this really rich conversation around, well, what's the purpose of the due date? Have we surveyed our kids in choosing a due date? Have we chosen a due date randomly because it works for us? Have we considered the landscape of the student experience in arbitrarily choosing a due date? So we started to survey some of our kids around what they have going on in their lives around some of our due date.
So, for example, Trevor will pick a due date Friday, May 19th. That's my due date for my kids. And then I, I would survey them and say, what other assessments do you have due around the same time? What other responsibilities do you have going on during that week? What can I hear from my students that maybe shifts that due date around or give some flexibility based on what my students are telling me? And so what we've done at my school is for some of our faculty, we've adopted what we call due date windows. Which is we propose a range of dates and within that range of dates, students, high-school students are choosing when they're gonna turn in their work. So for example, on that May 19th date that I arbitrarily chose, and then all my students are telling me, well, I have a math test on that day, or a chem test on that day, or another essay in history due on that day. I give them the full week to turn. And then the conversation is quite different, Cindy, isn't it? The conversation goes to, well, when are you gonna turn it in and why? Well, I'm gonna turn it in on Monday because later in the week it's busier for me. Or I'm gonna turn it on Friday because my earlier week is busier for me. That the conversation turns to what works best for the individual student rather than me making some arbitrary assessment decision that actually negatively impacts the data I'm collecting from my students.
Uh, another piece that ends up happening with a due date window that is really, really beautiful is I see a trickle of assessments being turned in throughout the week. So if you can imagine. The essay example, I see a few essays on Monday, maybe a few on Tuesday, maybe another handful on Wednesday. Maybe a, a huge amount on Friday. But you know what that allows me to do, Cindy? It allows me to more effectively and patiently give feedback each and every day because I'm seeing a smaller dose of evidence, there's nothing worse than seeing a big pile of evidence that you have to give feedback to. By the time you get halfway through the pile, you're exhausted. You're, you're, have I read the same thing a dozen times? It's, it allows us to be unbiased, patient, specific, and kind in the feedback that we give.
So that's something that I encourage all leaders to consider is how do you create the conditions for teachers to connect, to collaborate, to work together with regards to assessment, and then they make decisions around some of those tensions and assessment to best meet the student's needs. Does that make sense, Cindy?
Cindy:
It does. I'm hearing a theme of in your classroom or in the leadership level, taking almost an empathetic design approach that we're saying, yeah, hey, these are problems. We're not assuming anyone is bad or wrong in this. Let's figure this out together. And I think if we can all adopt that attitude of curiosity over assumption. That alone can be so transformative in our schools.
Trevor:
Absolutely. I say trust the professional integrity of your staff to come together when they're given time to make the best decisions possible for their scholars. And of course, if the value is. Centering the student, whether it's inquiry or assessment, then of course that value is gonna be demonstrated in the time that's provided for staff to connect and collaborate around those tensions or those values.
Absolutely. You said empathetic. I love that word. I couldn't agree more.
Passing on Data Across Grade levels (40:02)
Cindy:
Hmm. This question comes from Twitter and it's a little bit different. Um, I think it's Anela. Yeah. Anela on Twitter asked. About how do we kind of pass data on? So especially if we're moving in this feedback, um, driven stance, what are the best ways that we can communicate this learning journey from one grade level to the next?
Trevor:
Well, I, I would say we wanna look at diversity, like just not one form of communication, but diversity, you know, some of the richest experiences that we can have with students are in conferring with them. And, and when I say conferring, I just don't mean a conference. I mean having conversations, having a talk about the learning, whether it's one-on-one or in a small group setting. And so sometimes the best evidence of that being transferred on to another grade level. It's the conversation a teacher can have with the students when they come in the room. It's not that I'm passing data on to Cindy, because Cindy, you teach them next year, it's, well, Cindy, check in with them. Have a student-centered conference at the start of the year, asking them about what worked for them in the past.
What were their strengths last year? What were their stretches last year? Have them share that with you and have that guide some of your understanding of the scholars before them. There's nothing worse for students than feeling like they can't shake off past mistakes. Is there? There's nothing worse for students than walking into a classroom on the first day of school, feeling like they're already being judged or labeled based on something that happened last year.
Cindy:
Pigeonholed
Trevor:
The best way to honor the students before you is to engage. Listening, asking the right questions. One question we ask our students in the inquiry model as we get to know them is what works best for your learning? How can I best meet your needs? And we listen and then we plan accordingly. We document that in my classroom we have a, a learning wall where some of these attributes and some of this data is collected. And I often go up to this learning wall and I think about, well, my students have told me this. My students have told me that. How can I plan this week or today or this month with this data in mind? So some of those traditional data sets, you know, the report card, you know the portfolio, those are very helpful.
But gosh, the richest data we get from our students is from our students themselves. Conversely, there's nothing informative about a number I, I have to say, like, Cindy, you could be a 76. What does that tell me about you? Yeah, it tells, it tells me where you are across the bell curve. It tells me where you are across other students. It doesn't tell me what your strengths are or your stretches are. It doesn't tell me how I can best meet your needs. It just allows me to make a broad comparison to see where you fit in against a greater group of people. I really want to focus on the qualitative. So if I see a 76, I want to see the commentary. I want to see the feedback. I want to see that evidence that perhaps the student has written or a teacher has written that shows the color of the landscape of that student's learning.
So I'm very hesitant about looking at grades from a previous year to get an indication of where a student is. The most powerful ways to facilitate a conversation around students strengths, stretches what they need from you, and have a really honest listen and use that data to guide your instructional design.
Does that make sense?
Cindy:
It does. I, I feel a tension there though, between a fresh start and all of this beautiful data that's been collected both by the student and the teacher. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, do you see any kind of systems that leaders can put in place to make sure that that isn't lost? That all of all of these ‘ahas’ that we've had in the prior year aren't lost?
Trevor:
Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's definitely a both and more. It's not an either-or. So the scenario I described where we're conferring with kids as we get to know them, you know, know me before you teach me that philosophy of really settling into who the scholars are before us. That and the rich data and evidence that was collected, that was interrogated, that was evidenced across a whole year. We, we need to do both. So many schools I support. We are engaged in that. Know me before you teach me philosophy. In the first weeks of getting to know our students, we're also getting together and we're, we're conferring with teachers. So Cindy, if I'm passing on a group of students to you, we would have a, a little conference ourselves where we would, we would look at that data and you would say, tell me about Jimmy, tell me about Caitlin, tell me about Rebecca, and I would tell you the things that you want to know about based on that data and the rich experience that I had with my scholars the previous year. Now, some settings that create, or that's, that's a little difficult to do, right?
Like in my high school, there are 1400 kids. There 30 that I had last year, they're all of a sudden different rooms with different teachers. We can minimize that by having a faculty meeting where we do like, give one, get one, or we walk through the room and, does anyone know Caitlin? Oh, I know Caitlin. Okay, come over here. Um, those conversations are, are very rich and there are ways in which we can support those conversations in our school.
So I don't wanna give the impression that it's an either-or. The data that's collected across the span of time is richly informative, but there has to be that space to show all the, the, the nuance of the learning and, and a report card alone just doesn't do it.
So imagine this scenario, Cindy is, I email you a spreadsheet about the students that you're teaching and you're tasked with breathing the spreadsheet to try to figure out what's important or who the students are before you, that's not helpful. Yeah. But imagine you and I sit down and I talk you through the spreadsheet, and you ask me questions, and then I bring out some of the evidence and I tell you the story of some of those learners. Way more helpful, way more colorful! So a both and more rather than an either-or.
I think a, a constant theme that's slowly surfacing here. Some time needs to be given for those conversations. Time is a theme, isn't it? Um, for faculties to come together and teams to come together. And for you and I to sit down and talk about our learners, leaders need to give their teachers some time to have these rich conversations that reflect the values of the school. So if the value is student-centered, then we need to give time for teachers to engage in this work that allows us to teach from a student-centered stance. Time is an important piece that we need to lift. I'm so glad you paired time with values though, because if we're not given time, we're just gonna slip into what's always been done.
Cindy:
But if we're saying as a school we value X, we need the time to process well, what might that look like? And that question of ‘might’ in assessment, I think is what's often missing in schools.
Trevor:
I couldn't agree more. You know, what we value needs to be shown in, in how we are ordering and how we're placing and, and what's on the top of the list and what's on the bottom of the list. I was just speaking to a, a, a group of leaders and, um, I asked them to encourage their staff to use provocation. That was the last thing I taught them. The last thing I showed them, I said, leaders, when you email out your staff next week, please put provocation in your email. And then I said, not only put it in the email, make it the first thing in your email and, and model it. Say, I'm really curious about how you took curiosity to your learners through provocation. I'd like you to consider sending me evidence of… so modeling it and not having it be at the bottom of the email. If you value curiosity, it's the first thing in the email, which a, again, I know the portfolio of leaders and how robust it is and how full it is, and how stressful it can be. But we need to model the model, and if we truly value student-centered, then we need to show our staff that in every way possible- whether it's a newsletter or how we talk with one another, absolutely.
Cindy:
Beautiful. I think that's a beautiful spot to pause. So I've got a final set of three questions that I'm going to ask every guest who comes on the show. So you are the first ever to answer our final three. Are you ready for them, Trevor?
Trevor:
I'm ready. Yeah, sure. Let's do it.
School Leaders' Countdown: The Final Three (47:40)
Cindy:
Okay. So the first one, what is a book that has had the most profound impact on your life or your practice?
Trevor:
Yeah. And what, well, yeah, I, you know, I, I, I can't pick a single book, um, but I'm gonna talk about some authors that have had a huge impact on my practice that 20 years ago. I, I never thought that these authors would be, you know, critical friends or, or, co-speakers but, um, you know, right away I think of Kath Murdoch and her rich body of work and the research that she's been engaged in for, she'll kill me for saying this, but for over 30 years she's been in inquiry settings and so she's written 17 books and, um, all of them have had an impact on my career in one way, shape, or form. Um, I think of Ron Berger. I think of all the things I do with my students around feedback and formative and conferring. And everything is kind of gifted in Ron Berger's body of work. Um, I, I think of obviously Ron Richhart and Mark Church and their work around thinking routines and how the evidence that I engage in with my students is actually a lot of the time found in structures and protocols and frameworks that Ron has been researching for decades. So one book, no, but definitely a school of thinking. Who are the voices that have shaped a common direction for me and trajectory for me in terms of my teaching of teachers and my teaching of? Students. Absolutely. More of a school of thinking, Cindy.
Cindy:
Can I push you a little to ask, do you remember the first one that you read that was just like “haaah”?
Trevor:
Yeah, I'll hold it up for you. It was, uh, Grant Wiggins’ and Jay McTighe’s Essential questions. It was this one, and I remember exactly who handed this one to me. It was a teacher librarian, Geoff Orme, and he handed it to me and I thought, well, this is exactly what I needed, and I devoured it. It was, it was such a, a palatable read at such a quick read, and there are so many things in it that I immediately did right away after I read it. And so, and that took me down just like the spiraling of, okay, well what's this and what's this and what's this over here? So this was the first Essential Questions by Grant Wiggins and Jay McTighe, the late Grant Wiggins, and Jay McTighe.
Cindy:
Isn't that so beautiful? How the right book at the right time, just, It's just amazing. It's the best feeling in the world.
Trevor:
Yeah. And from the right person. You know, Geoff Orme, who handed me that book, like I know as he was handing it to me, I could trust the book because he knew what I was working on in my practice. We had been conspirators and inquiry for so long that when he handed it to me, I thought, Oh, I, I really need this because I trusted his support of me. I trusted his, his professional judgment. And so the right book at the right time from the right person says a lot. Hear that leaders! Hear that leaders!
Cindy:
Absolutely. And shout out to our school librarians, the heroes.
Trevor:
Um, absolutely.
How can leaders model the delicate dance between joyous and productive workplaces?
Cindy:
Okay. Question number two of the final three. This is my personal research project. I find that leaders tend to kind of have this tension between joyous leadership, like sustainability and joy, and then like productivity, and people tend to fall into one camp or the other. So in your opinion, how do you strike a balance between the two? Having joyous, sustainable workplaces, but also really productive workplaces.
Trevor:
Well, it's a spectrum, you know, it's not a t-chart, it is a spectrum, right? It's not like the, the, the one side that you refer to, the joyous and the other side sounds like the portfolio, the things that schools have to do for health and safety, managing and operating a building. Um, it's, it's not a T-chart. It is a spectrum. And I think when leaders think of it along the lines of a spectrum, it really shapes then how they interact and engage and the, the, the people in the building, or excuse me, with the people in the building. So at a staff meeting, if we understand these items along that spectrum, then we can understand how we have to shift and be nimble across that spectrum.
So it's not a T-chart. And I think that's something that a lot of teachers and leaders, excuse me, leaders tend to fall into is, or I could demonstrate that over here, but I certainly couldn't do that over here. Whereas, it is a delicate dance and in fact, it's the same delicate dance that our teachers are doing with their students.
You know, we are working with one scholar here who has really unique needs, really particular needs, and we support them. And then we literally turn, and we have another scholar over here in our classrooms who has a very different list of needs and series of demands and feelings and experiences. If we are asking teachers to pivot powerfully, beautifully, mindfully, leaders, you need to model that model.
You know, what's really helpful for leaders is to talk about that spectrum of, you know, the joyous to the portfolio allowed with teachers and to model how they themselves are aware of that, how they themselves are gonna step over here with this action item, but lean into this value in this action item over here.
And then teachers are gonna see how they could dance that delicate dance in their own practice with their own students. So again, I think a misconception that I'm hearing surface in our conversation is it's an either-or when really it is, how can we weave these two together and show like it's a spectrum, whether it's the swimming pool analogy or this spectrum of joyous versus portfolio?
Cindy:
Hmm. And that tension, the vulnerability of sharing that process,
Trevor:
So powerful, goodness, sharing our thinking, sharing our feelings, modeling that model. Of course, then we're gonna see teachers doing that with their students, which is just so healthy for student growth and competency development for sure.
How can teacher agency transform school leadership?
Cindy:
Love it. Okay. Our final question today, although I'm loathed to let you go, uh, final question. So all the experiences you've had in schools, you've been around the world, you've written books, you're in your own classroom. What's one piece of advice that you would give to all leaders that you just think would have the most transformative impact on their practice?
Trevor:
Well, it has to do with teacher agency, Cindy, and, um, I'm, I'm so glad you've asked this question because we often talk about student agency and students having voice and choice and opportunities for ownership over their learning, and then none of that exists for our teachers and how schools are operated and how schools are run. So I would say providing teachers with the agency over the parameters of which they teach. Parameters around agency mean that there needs to be a clear direction, like there, there is somewhat of a box, isn't there? It's not a free for all. So you know, for example, there are 10 student-centered assessment beliefs that the schools I support live by. They, they plan for, they learn about. Gosh, having agency within those 10 beliefs to dive deeply into a personalized teacher goal or some professional development about one of those goals that the teacher feels is highly important and relevant for their context and their career, and their learners. That's teacher agency. It's not a free for all. They can't do professional development about anything. It's rooted in the values. So leaders listening, if we want agency for our students, where are we providing agency for our teachers? Again, the misalignment in asking teachers to do something that we, in fact, are not providing experiences that are similar or aligned. Teachers will revert back to what leadership is doing rather than what leadership is saying.
Cindy:
Yes. Can you define for me agency really fast? So what is your favorite definition of agency? Sorry to tag in one more.
Trevor:
Well, yeah, no, it's great. I, I talk about voice choice and ownership, voice choice and ownership. And oftentimes I ask myself the question, am I doing something for myself that my students could be doing? For themselves. Am I doing something for my students that they could be doing for themselves? And if the answer is yes, I, I remove myself from the situation. I empower them. I provide the conditions for them to take on ownership over whatever those parameters are.
So leaders as well. Is there something you're doing for your staff, for your student body that they could be doing for themselves? And how could you create the conditions for them to take ownership over that? So voice choice and ownership in short, but really being mindful of that question allows me to show up in a way where I'm sharing the landscape of, of the learning with my stakeholders.
Cindy:
I love that. So many amazing themes, empathetic design, you know, always keeping the students at the center. I think that there's so many nuggets from today's conversation, and I just feel so honored, Trevor.
Trevor:
I'm honored. Cindy, I always have such a fun time talking to you. You are an inspiration. I greatly appreciate your questions and your insights and, uh, I look forward to seeing other episodes in the series, so thank you for inviting me. Greatly appreciated.
Cindy:
Yeah, stay tuned. All right guys. That's it for our first episode and we'll see you next time on the School Leaders Project.
