The Paradigm Shift: Exploring the Learner-Centered Revolution

Introduction

About the guests (2:43)

Cindy:
Thanks so much for being here.

Katie:
Happy to be here. Thanks for having us.

Cindy:
So I'd love for you both to set the stage for our audience. What is the work that you do that you're most passionate about?

Katie:
I'll jump in. I think that at the Learner Center Collaborative, we get to work with school leaders who are passionate about creating new and different models of school that really anchor on the learners they serve, really supporting their strengths, their interests, their goals, and creating a school system that best meets the needs. of the learners that we include teachers in that too. We include families and community members, but really just creating schools that meet the needs of the modern world.

Cindy:
How about you, Devin?

Devin:
Yeah, well, I like what Katie said, but I would add one of the things that I get most energized by is, you know, we always begin with the learners. And so we get the opportunity to do a lot of listening to learners, student forums, student surveys, learning walks, really, really understanding the learner experience and then using that to co-design with and for students and learners. It just leads to all these incredible. possibilities and opportunities and I get really energized by seeing the enthusiasm of our young people in the process.

School-centered vs. Student-centered vs. Learner-centered (4:16)

Cindy:
language you called out there. So typically we tend to see a school-centered model and you talk about a learner-centered model. Might you talk about the difference between those two perspectives?

Katie:
Yeah, it's, you know, and I think a lot of times people will interchange learner centered with student centered and assume they're synonymous. And I think we see them differently. So a school centered model is very much focused on a traditional system built in the industrial era, really out of standardization, compliance, completion of task and efficiency in a sense. but not necessarily designed for the individual to achieve their own goals. A student-centered model is like moving in that direction of thinking about the students and their goals. But when we say learner-centered model, we're really thinking about a new and different model that is a departure from an industrial model that is designed with whole learner outcomes, designed for... teaching the whole child, the whole learner, their strengths, their interests, their goals, their aspirations, and designing learning experiences that actually really are in service of that whole learner. So learning that is more authentic, that is personalized, authentic, and designed in inclusive and equitable communities. And then the conditions, scheduling. technology, resources, communities, partnerships are all intentionally designed toward that model for more agency, collaboration, authentic work and competency-based assessment of learning.

Cindy:
Would you add anything to that, Devin?

Devin:
Well, one thing that Katie has helped me to understand over the years is that learner centered is a better term because we're all learners. Adults are also learners and many of the same concepts that Katie just described around promoting agency, collaboration, problem solving, authentic application. These are the things that inspire all of us as humans. And if we want to see... the learning experience meaningfully change for the students, we also need to think about each of us as learners and how we create the same set of environments and enabling conditions for all of us that are involved in the educational community.

Cindy:
I love that addition, thinking about everybody in our community, whether it's the janitor or the co-teacher or whoever it is, is also a learner and part of that culture of creation. I think it's really cool. So would you say it's almost like a continuum then from school-centered to learner-centered, or is it more siloed than that?

Katie:
Go ahead, Devin.

Devin:
Well, the way that I think about it is that there are different paradigms, different views of the world. And most of us are conditioned to think of education in that school-centered model, the industrial factory model of mass production, standardization, kind of a conveyor belt model, that is a paradigm that many people in education hold. Learner-centered is a different paradigm around the purpose. of these educational systems, which is not about those institutional efficiencies. It is about bringing out the best of each and every one of us, you know, helping us to know ourselves and thrive in community, actively engage in the world as our best selves. And if you hold that as a paradigm, then there are a lot of implications for systems and structures. And the implementation of those might be on a continuum because there are a lot of moving pieces, but there is a mindset shift that is there's a distinction. And once you shift your view to a learner centered paradigm, we find you don't go back. You don't revert back to saying, oh, I should. So once you have that view, then the progress is kind of on a continuum, but there's definitely a paradigm distinction between school centered and learner centered.

Katie:
Yeah, I would add to that too. I mean, I love that description and there are new and different models being created from scratch, right? That like startup, new school designs that are really cool and with this paradigm and mindset, we can design differently than we would have in an industrial system and in a public education system where most of our kids are, they exist in systems, districts. regions in which they're very grounded in this school-centered industrial paradigm. We both feel really strongly about in our organization that we are not leaving those kids behind and being like, we're just creating something new. That there's these great models that are being created. It's incumbent upon all of us to think about how we support existing systems to move to that model, which has to be on a continuum. because there's so many things that are ingrained. It's not impossible, it's hard, but I think a lot of it, as Devin said, the first step is shifting your mindset of why schools exist and what our goals are, and especially as the world evolves, we have new and different skills that matter and that kids need to be able to succeed, and all of us, frankly, need to be able to succeed in not just school, but in life.

The education system isn’t broken, it’s doing what it’s designed to do (10:00)

Cindy:
that. You brought up something that I feel has come up again and again in conversations with leaders, is this idea of honestly a broken system, right? The school model broken system, and that even schools who are trying to change are sometimes trapped in this larger system. How do you combat that when you're trying to bring schools forward, but they're still part of that?

Katie:
few things. I think that there's differing opinions, but many will say it's actually not broken. It's doing exactly what it was designed to do. Right? So it is inefficient and ineffective for our world and what we actually need. But the systems are doing exactly what they were designed for. Standardization, compliance, ranking and sorting people. What we need now is much more of that agency, collaboration, problem solving. What we do time and time again is ask people what they value most. We ask learners, young people, we ask the teachers, we ask administrators, we ask communities, business partners, what matters most? And they say things like communication, collaboration, joy, well-being, effective citizens, contributing citizens. So we get some version of this and every time we talk to people wherever it is in the world. And when you orient to those things, you have to shift the learning experience and you have to shift the systems and structures. But so when we keep coming back to that and we have to hold that as our North Star, not this is the schedule we've had for 50 years, this is the way we've always registered our kids, this is the way that we have to allocate for teacher, you know, teachers, one teacher per 30 kids. There's a lot of things that we've always done and that are systems we've designed. So we have to look at the new outcomes and redesign those systems. And it's energizing. Like people always say, oh, you do professional development or you work with educators, that must be really hard. And it is hard work. But when we get to work with these leaders, they're always so energized. I often hear like, This is the first time we're talking about learning. Every time you come is when we get to do the work that really matters to us. So

Cindy:
Yeah.

Katie:
our job and role is to do more of that, to create more

Cindy:
But

Katie:
of

Cindy:
you

Katie:
those

Cindy:
hit

Katie:
spaces.

Cindy:
the nail on the head there. You said, when you come is when we do this, right? But I imagine like a teacher's plate and it's just another thing. So is this just another thing on the plate? Or are you saying, hey, let's shatter the plate because unless we're doing that, then we're not really making progress, right?

Katie:
No. Yeah, it's not more, it's different.

Cindy:
Hmm,

Devin:
Mm-hmm.

Cindy:
Devin, did you want to add in there?

Devin:
Well, just in terms of that, like mindset shift and how do you get out of the box that we've been in? One of the things that we've found that's also really powerful is just exposure to different ways of doing things. So a lot of the educational profession is designed for isolated practice. You have self-contained classrooms. You have a building principle that maybe doesn't go visit other buildings. You have, you know, a lot of lot of isolation in education and it is so powerful when a teacher goes down the hall and sees something different that's better happening in their own environment or when a principal goes across town and sees something that is being done in a different way. And it's also really powerful to get out of your own environment and go into a different state or into a different setting entirely and see how people do things because what you recognize is a lot of the... the constraints that you perceive are, they're self-imposed and people
in other environments or even sometimes in the same environment are perceiving things differently and bringing different possibilities to life, which helps you recognize that there's a, the space for possibilities much greater than you might have expected. And it also really demystifies some of these practices. So when we talk about things like competency-based education or You know, if you don't have experience with it, it can seem like this really daunting abstract. But when you go see people implementing it, you go, oh, well, that makes sense. I see how this is working for students. I could do that. Uh, so I think one of the elements of the broader change strategy is we, we want to, we want to get people into networks. We want to get them out into different environments. We want to have these learning communities that are moving together. Uh, and You know, that can happen in a particular environment. It can happen across environments. But one of the reasons we put collaborative in the name of our organization is it's gonna take this social connectivity if we really want to have the broader change that we wanna see for all learners. And that has to be part of the work of leaders in every setting is how are you creating those conditions for high levels of relational trust and building that social capital for learning to happen more broadly at scale.

Are the barriers to change real or perceived? (15:13)

Cindy:
It sounds like that would be a really cool exercise for leaders to do either independently or with their team of what are the barriers or the perceived barriers between our values and our practice
and where are they coming from? Are they real? Are they in our heads and how can we overcome them? Just might be a cool thing just to know, oh, this is just imaginary. We can be more flexible here.

Katie:
Yeah, well, and we were talking to a leader the other day who kind of was saying the same thing. He said, we wanted to create this zone of innovation. And we started listing all the things that we wanted to do and this the waiver we were going to propose to the state. And they looked at their list. And there wasn't anything on the list they couldn't do. And so they started saying like, we don't actually need to do this waiver. We just actually need to have the courage and the stamina. to go ahead and start removing these barriers that we have put in place or have been in existence for a long time.

Devin:
Well, not to pile too much on here, but Katie often talks about this 4P approach to change. And one of them is permission. And I was telling the story recently about a principal that I worked with. That was this great principal. He was doing amazing things, but he kept checking with me on everything. You know, can I do this? Here's the situation. Am I allowed to do this? And I kept telling him, yeah, go ahead.

Cindy:
Go for it.

Devin:
You got it. You don't need my permission. And he, and, You know, he was trying to do the right things. And at one point he said, well, how do I know when I should call you? Which is a fair question. And I said, well, just proceed until you're apprehended. And it was, it was basically saying like, go until someone tells you, you can't. And then we'll come back to it. Well, subsequent to that conversation, he was like a rocket ship. Like he and his whole school just took off. And, and it, we do as leaders, we need to be explicit about giving people permission to. be their best selves and to do the right thing for learners. And so I agree with what Katie's saying and then a lot of these things are sort of self-imposed and we need to interrogate these assumptions. But once we do, we also need to be explicit with one another to say, you have the permission to do the things that you know are right for kids.

Cindy:
I love that. I think that could be an ultimate takeaway from this episode is just give it a go, give it a try. Give yourself permission and give your team permission to try. Really cool.

Katie:
Yeah. Well, I would, I

Cindy:
Go

Katie:
was just

Cindy:
for it.

The 4Ps of change (17:46)

Katie:
going to add on the other ones of that. If you're looking at permission, that's important, but then you have to give them protection if things don't go perfectly and like, okay, let's talk about it. Come to me. I'm going to create a space where yes, you have permission to try something. And when it doesn't go perfectly, you have protection and we're going to talk about it. Um, and then also it's just like being able to remove those barriers as leaders. Sometimes you have to. actively go out and remove those barriers. And then we have to eliminate perfectionism because it doesn't exist. We are notorious as educators for thinking we have to be perfect and we have to have all the answers before we try anything. But eliminating that notion that one is perfect or that any learning process is, it is really important. And that part of that is like opening up your classroom and demystifying what's actually happening to help people say like, oh yeah, this... The end product, that one thing I showed might look perfect, but there's so much that happened in the process that's far from it.

Cindy:
love you mention protection because it's one thing to say yeah go for it it's another thing when the angry parent comes to school to go like throw you under the bus can you say the four p's again for us just for the audience real fast

Katie:
Yeah, now I'm going to have to like, so it's protection, permission, eliminate perfectionism and it's the removal of, it's not barriers, but it's intentionally… I forget what the P is now that I'm saying it.

Cindy:
I didn't hear a fourth theme, but

Katie:
Removing

Cindy:
I'm sure that

Katie:
the barriers.

Cindy:
one exists.

Katie:
I like, I say it all the time and I have to go back and look at it just because

Cindy:
Ha

Katie:
I'm

Cindy:
ha

Katie:
here.

Cindy:
ha!

Katie:
Thanks, Devin.

Devin:
Great

Cindy:
I love that.

Katie:
I'll come back to it at the end. I'll be like talking and it'll come back to me. I'll be like, there

Cindy:
Always.

Katie:
it is.

Cindy:
No, it'll happen right when we end the call. That's always how it happens, right?

Devin:
I'm

Cindy:
So

Devin:
Sorry.

What is the learner-centered framework? (19:42)

Cindy:
I'd love to pivot a little bit and jump into your framework because I hadn't heard of the Learner Central Framework before, but when I did, I nerded out because I come from an IB background. So I love a framework. And this just felt so simple, intuitive, beautiful. So can you just tell me a little bit about your framework? Who's it for? How you created it? Just kind of the origin story.

Katie:
Yeah, happy to. So it's a three-part framework and the goal is simplicity, right? But it starts with whole learner outcomes that we have to start with what it is we're trying to accomplish, the outcomes that we want to see. And from those whole learner outcomes, we have to think about what are the learning experiences that are critical to develop those outcomes? And those learning experiences often look very different than a traditional classroom but are very in line with how we learn in the world when you ask people. And those are, I mentioned them earlier, authentic learning, inclusive and equitable communities, personalized learning and competency-based learning. And then the last one is the enabling conditions. So the conditions that are required to create coherence, community and connectedness or the culture and connectedness are the important conditions to be able to create those learning experiences that allow us to develop those outcomes that we want.

Cindy:
Nice. Can you share a little bit more about the story of it? So like the why you made it, how you made it.

Katie:
Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a winding road and it and in a way, so my first book, Learner Centered Innovation, one of the chapters was the learner centered ecosystem, which had the beginnings of this framework that I was starting to see. I'm like definitely going back to my like roots in grad school, like grounded theory. What I see is what I start to pull together. And I started to see this framework of. schools that were shifting practices were anchored on different outcomes. Their learning was looking different and they had those different enabling conditions. So I started to design that. And then, you know, as I started working with Devin more and more, and we started doing this work, it really got fleshed out in my second book, which is Evolving Education, which is really aligned in those three parts. What are the outcomes we want for learners? What are the most meaningful learning experiences and what are the enabling conditions to make it happen? And yeah, and our team, of course, I'd be remiss if it's like Ben, incredible in helping us build out the specifics of it. And we now have educator competencies. We have professional learning courses and modules to support that with micro-credentials.

Cindy:
Cool.

Katie:
It's been really, really, really fun to help build out that framework and really create those tactical resources.

Cindy:
Do you have leader competencies as well?

Katie:
We do not have leader competencies. We use the enabling conditions. So

Cindy:
Hmm, okay.

Katie:
if you think about the outcomes, those are locally designed by communities and the outcome frameworks based on the goals and the needs of the community, although we see a lot of similarity across them. Then the learning experiences are designed from research. and learning sciences and outlined. And then those competencies are, we say, are for the learning model that educators can use to think about their practice. And then the enabling conditions that we map out. There's 10 of them that we map out for leaders to think about their practice and how they're supporting their school design.

Cindy:
check those out. Devin, we were talking earlier before Katie came on just about how cool it is to find a collaborative partnership like this. So I wonder what are kind of the skill sets that you brought to the table in the development of the framework? What's Devin in it?

Devin:
Good question. I mean, this is mostly Katie's brainchild. So, you know, give credit where credit is due. She's the grounded theoretician who worked in the field to co-develop and co-design this really elegant, beautiful model. But I would hope that my influence would be seen, particularly in the outcomes and in the enabling conditions. We talk a lot about how you measure the things that matter. And I, you know, am like oddly interested in assessment and data and statistics. And, and, uh, we often have really, you know, interesting conversations about how, how do you measure some of these really complex constructs? And I don't know that anyone has it totally figured out, but I feel like we've made a lot of progress, uh, over the last decade or so, uh, in that area. And then on the enabling conditions, I mean, my doctoral work was on relational trust and social capital, and I spent my career in public schools as a superintendent, district leader and principal, really thinking about how do you create coherence? How do you build a culture of learning? How do you embrace connectivity, a connectedness through digital ecosystems and partnerships with universities and businesses? So I would hope that I would bring some perspective about bringing those enabling conditions to life and how that really is an important part of this change process. And it requires different modes of leadership. And the book that I wrote, Learner-Centered Leadership is really about that. What is the role of the leader in this process? And how do we go beyond leading for incremental improvement and really thinking about... setting those enabling conditions for transformational change to support that paradigm shift to learner-centered models.

Cindy:
Nice. Okay, with that in mind then, I've got two questions for you, Katie, and one for you, Devin. Just to be kind of equitable here. So you, I think, were more like the whole learner outcome. So for our audience, can you describe the difference between a whole learner outcome versus maybe the traditional outcomes we've seen in schools? What's the difference there?

Katie:
Is that for me

Cindy:
That's for

Katie:
or?

Cindy:
you, Katie.

Katie:
Well, first I will just say Devin, of course, if anyone knows him is, is extremely modest and

Cindy:
Oh.

Katie:
he's very much instrumental to the framework and the work at the learner center collaborative. Um, and my initial work in San Diego and beyond was with Vista, which was the, the, you know, district that he was superintendent of, and we were all very collaborative in this initial. but where I was starting to do this research. And then it's of course become models and he's been one of the leaders who has shown that you can do this work in a district when many have said you can't. And so he's created some of the initial models that we're able to build on as a team. So

Cindy:
Awesome.

Katie:
very much part of it. So the whole learner outcome piece is typically, Our model of success is you got a good GPA. Right now it's like, you know, 4.7 is what I hear you need to get into a college, or you have these incredible SAT scores or ACT scores. So our model of success has been very narrow.

Cindy:
Right

Katie:
And the outcomes have been, you took these courses, it's been, you know, very, very standardized, it's a narrow path. So when we say whole learner outcomes, we are looking at the whole child, right? So we're looking at you, yes, your academics, your social emotional learning, your wellbeing. We're looking at the skills that are necessary for life, not just for eighth grade or ninth grade or that next level. And sometimes, you know, as a former teacher, we can be myopic around, but this is what I have to do. And

Cindy:
correct

Katie:
I don't want the teacher next year to be mad at me if they don't put a period at the end of the sentence, which kids always miss. But we're really looking at, okay, if the World Economic Forum says that creativity and innovation and learning to learn are the skills that are absolutely critical for young people, for all of us, frankly, to do well in the workforce, well, part of success, that's more of an end goal than. Did you pass this test or did you pass this grade? Of course we want kids to do well in school and to develop those skills, but that is a low bar. The end result is what we should be backwards mapping from. So we look at across these research of what people need to be successful in our world today and start thinking about how do we make those outcomes more important? and at the forefront of educators minds when they're designing their classes, the way that they structure their community, how they collaborate and also partnerships that go beyond school so that they can start to have experience in those authentic contexts.

Cindy:
So balancing not just knowledge, but acquisition of skills and dispositions that support learners in real world contexts.

Katie:
Yes, absolutely.

What’s a competency-based approach? (29:35)

Cindy:
Makes sense. Okay, and then the other term that was new to me, this one's also for you, Katie, is competency-based approach. And that was one, it's kind of the top, it's right there in your model. And I was like, I mean, I can kind of parse out what it means, but what does it mean to you?

Katie:
Yeah. So sometimes people will say this is another one that's like conflated with some different models that's on the continuum. Some will say, well, standards-based grading. We focus on the standard. Fine. When we say competency-based grading, it's a little bit bigger, but it also includes these whole learner outcomes. So if we want kids to be effective collaborators, we are looking at how are you demonstrating that competence in that? This doesn't always... It's not easy nor should we measure it by ABCD 1234. It should be really about how are we helping learners to understand those goals, to practice those skills and to show evidence of how they're developing and growing in those areas. So a competency-based approach is getting really clear on your outcomes, knowledge, skills, and dispositions and helping learners. show how they're demonstrating those specific competencies, not I got a 94 on my test, so I can move on. But look, I'm really, really proficient in identifying the main idea, in synthesizing text, and collaborating with my peers. I'm still working on being able to communicate my ideas effectively. That's a skill that I'm working on.

Cindy:
So almost assessment capability of students, kind of growing that.

Katie:
Yes, and part of that is getting really clear as a system what it is we want and what it is we stand for. And so that can vary by system and that's something the system and this is what Devin always says the system decides what those outcomes are and then you can help learners understand how to get there and be part of the process in that journey. But if we say as a system, you know, we're really focused on collaboration, communication. global citizenship, then that's what we stand for. And we're helping learners do that. And then they have agency in the process of, I might choose to write a book or someone else might wanna do a podcast, but we're still communicating and meeting those competencies in a way that demonstrates proficiency.

Cindy:
Makes sense.

Devin:
Just to add to this, it's really important to have clarity of those outcomes in order to enable flexibility. And so there's this paradox of clarity of where you're going allows for multiple pathways and different ways to demonstrate that you're making progress. But if you don't have clarity of that destination, and then you try to provide more choice and more flexibility, you just get. And that's not helpful at all. And we as humans, we need that orientation. We need to have some sense of why we're doing things and where we're going and whether we're making progress. And so it's a really critical element of creating the conditions for us to be our best and to navigate our own journey. We have to have clarity of that destination, to have multiple pathways to unleash agency.

Cindy:
I love that. To question you guys a little bit further, though, so like if I'm a school using Common Core or NextGen,

Katie:
Mm-hmm.

Cindy:
just because I'm adapting competency-based and I do want to assess skills and dispositions, I still have all of this content. So in your work with schools, do you work on limiting that content so there is more space for acquisition of skills and disposition or it's just adding more onto the plate?

Katie:
So one thing I wanna clarify, so you just said, you know, the Common Core and then content you have to cover. Common Core doesn't say there's content you have to cover. That's schools that do that, right? So what the outcome is are the standards. So we keep coming back to like, what are the actual outcomes that students need? And a lot of times exactly what you just said, they start to say, but I have to cover this whole content. I'm like, that's your curriculum. That is not the standard. and they're not the same. So getting people really clear on that outcome is actually what's the critical part. What is the outcome that I'm trying to achieve? And there's multiple ways like Devin said to get there. And a lot of times we use the content and we shove a lot of the content in that makes it impossible to do that. So yes, we have to prioritize. What are the outcomes? Do we need all of these? What are the priority standards or competencies we're focusing on? And then how can we design our schedules, pare down our curriculum, identify our resources? I just did a podcast yesterday with an amazing school leader, Buffy Cushman-Pates, who is the founder of Charter School Seeks. And the way they've organized their schedule, they have rigorous Common Core. classes that all kids take, sixth through eighth grade, and they have designed their schedule. And then they also have what they call EQS or their project-based learning time, that they're applying their

Cindy:
awesome.

Katie:
knowledge, skills, and dispositions in an authentic project-based way. So kids are still learning the core content and they have opportunities to apply it, but they're also looking at, the way we talk about assessment, where are you growing? So we have to look at assessment differently rather than a cut score and how are kids growing and showing progress? How are they related to grade level expectations? And then also how are they demonstrating these core competencies, habits that we really find important? And that's again, portfolio defense, that's in student led conferences, not necessarily in a checkbox or an ABCD.

Cindy:
this. I didn't know if there's gonna be an addition there. Okay.

Devin:
Ah, no, keep going.

How do we create enabling conditions? (36:01)

Cindy:
Okay, great. Devin, let's pivot to you then, because it sounds like the enabling conditions are maybe kind of your baby is part of this. So if I'm a leader and I'm looking at creating more enabling conditions for this type of learning to happen, where might I start? What has the most impact?

Devin:
Well, every learner is unique. Every situation is a little unique. So there's no standardization in that answer. But I do think that we do see some patterns. One of them is that without relational trust, you're not going to be... effective with many of the other elements of those enabling conditions. You might have great policies, you might have great resource allocation, but if you have low levels of relational trust, it's very hard to have meaningful change in a system. So we often start with relational trust and social capital and having leaders self-reflect based on a framework that's research-based around consistency, compassion, competence, and communication. And then think about their own role in that, as well as what are the patterns that they see among the leadership team. That is a really common place to start. But another enabling condition is outcomes, clarity of your outcomes. And so that's less about myself as an individual and more about are we creating those conditions for coherence. So I'm going to cheat and say two, you know, start with yourself and your role in creating the culture and climate and the relational trust, but also really start thinking about where are you going? What is the purpose? What is the goal here? And then there are other enabling conditions tied to collective efficacy and, uh, partnerships and they, they're all important, but if you don't have yourself in a good spot and you don't know where you're going, it's going to be hard to be effective with the other ones.

Cindy:
think that's, I like that you have such balance in that initial answer because we need both, right? We need a person who is a human who has empathy and who can lead us. We also need to know where the heck we're going and if we don't have those then we can't succeed. I like that.

Devin:
That's right. Well, and even in the trust framework, competence is one of the four elements of relational trust. And if you are not getting things done, you will not be trustworthy. And that competence is very situational. And each of us have sort of jagged profiles. We're good at certain things, not so good at other ones. But being explicit about all of that is really helpful. And You know, as leaders of learning organizations is really important to have that clarity of where we're going. How do we know if we're making progress? Are we living into those things that are most important to us?

How do we build teacher autonomy? (39:02)

Cindy:
Beautiful. So I'll posit this question to both of you then. It sounds to me like a big part of what makes your system work is a high level of teacher autonomy, right? Teachers seeing themselves as masters of their curriculum, teachers feeling the freedom to teach in these ways. So in your work with schools, how do you go about building that sense of teacher autonomy?

Katie:
I'll jump in first and then Devin, I'd love for you to share. I think one of the major messaging challenges here is in part of in what you said too, that we're like, teacher agency, teach yourself all the control in the world. And what immediately people think is like, oh my gosh, then it's just a free for all. You just do whatever

Cindy:
Mmm.

Katie:
you want. And that's, that's more chaos than, than really structured impactful learning. So yes, teachers definitely need to have control and agency, but it's different from the way that we tend to see it. So a lot of times I see teachers who are like, I should have total control, I'm gonna shut my door, do whatever I want. That's not at all what we're talking about.

Cindy:
Mm-mm.

Katie:
We're actually talking about clear outcomes, clear framework. Devin always says, you can hold me accountable to the process or you can hold me to the outcomes or the process, sorry. So like, We want to hold people accountable to the outcomes. We don't want to micromanage every step with a pacing guide. Here's what you need to do today. Here's what test you need to give tomorrow. We want people to know the clear outcomes and have reasonable timelines and then allow for that teacher collaboration, creativity, accountability is very much a part of that. Like, here's what you said you're gonna do. Are you doing it? Where's the evidence? How are students learning? That is very much instrumental. So actually there's more collaboration than not in a typical system. Teachers are collaborating every day. Teachers are working with one another and navigating, what should we, you know, how can we help these students? What, you know, this strategy I used is not working. How can I help to, you know, get to what students need? So it actually... Teachers sometimes might feel like, oh my gosh, I used to have much more freedom. Now it's much more accountability to the desired outcomes, but they have more opportunity and agency to do things that matter most, build relationships, play with students, create opportunities for students to lead their own learning and do projects and things that matter. So I think that's where the flexibility is rather than on the, here's what you will teach today.

Cindy:
So I'm hearing a theme of curiosity there, that like if we want to have curious students, we have to have curious teachers who are examining how they're doing things.

Katie:
Absolutely, absolutely examining. Yeah, why am I teaching this way? One of my favorite examples is the Design 39 team. They're a K-8 school here in San Diego. And you'll see their campus and kids are just kind of running everywhere. And at first glance, people go, oh my gosh, it's like chaos. You have a kindergartner who just like walked past me and doesn't have an adult holding their hand. And what the... teachers said, the founding teachers, they said, we actually really had to examine everything we did. And we started to wonder why we were making kids stand in a line. We were actually wasting all this time going to get them at recess, standing

Cindy:
Yeah.

Katie:
in a line, telling them that they were out of line, going back and practicing again. And it was creating more tension than doing good. And you see this all the time with like middle school or high schoolers, like, sit in your seat and they're like wiggly and they can't help it and you spend more time fighting with them about sitting in their seat and taking their hoodie off than actually doing the learning. So

Cindy:
Cultures

Katie:
that's just

Cindy:
of

Katie:
a very

Cindy:
control. Yeah,

Katie:
control,

Cindy:
just.

Katie:
right? Because we want to have control over the kids instead of we want to create the room for learning, for growth, for connection. And that's again, the paradigm shift. Like is my goal to control you? And if teachers feel controlled, because the pacing guide and the tests and all the benchmarks that they have to achieve, then they in turn try and control the kids and are the outputs not generally great. So when we allow teachers clear outcomes, very clear goals of what we're trying to accomplish, agency and space to collaborate and learn from one another, we see that they then create those same opportunities for their students.

Cindy:
To quote a very wise woman I may have talked to once, teachers create what they experience.

Katie:
That is true.

Cindy:
That's a Katie quote, audience.

Devin:
Brilliant,

Cindy:
Devin,

Devin:
brilliant. Yeah.

Cindy:
did you wanna add anything to that about just creating that culture of autonomy?

Devin:
Yeah, well, I think. I'm gonna try not to get too abstract, but there's a concept called a fractal. And a fractal is

Cindy:
Yeah!

Devin:
a self-similar

Cindy:
Okay.

Devin:
system. And communities should be like that as well. And so if we wanna see agency and creativity and collaboration from students, we need that from teachers. We also need it from principals. We need it from district office leaders. There needs to be something that's self-similar across these different dimensions. You know, when we've gone through this change process, what we see is that progress is a little bit uneven and that you get to these certain points where people start to get uncomfortable, almost like the principle I was talking about earlier, like, can I really do this? Do I really have permission? Because it pushes us a bit beyond our comfort zone, but when you have the culture and the connectedness and the support and the environment where you know that you're... you're getting the outcomes that you're trying to achieve, you persist through that, and you end up with fundamentally better outcomes, fundamentally better experiences, and we are seeing in these pockets across the country where people have moved through this change process, that there is a new model of teaching and learning that's emerging that is learner-centered in this paradigm. And it is the future that we need for all. all of us. And so what, you know, excites me is we know it's possible. We're seeing it happen. We're getting better and better about seeing some of the patterns and ways in which we can support that change. And this can be the new normal for all learners, just like at one

Cindy:
Nice.

Devin:
point, the factory model was a new normal for all learners. There can be a new, an evolution of education to a learner centered experience for all. And that's a really exciting possibility.

What are the buts? (46:11)

Cindy:
you both what is the biggest but that gets in the way?

Katie:
Oh, the biggest but that I hear is depending who I'm talking to. But it's really, but they won't let me do it, right? Whoever it is, if I'm a teacher, but my superintendent won't let me do it, but my principal won't let me do it, but the parents want me to only focus on getting, you know. for their kids getting A's, right? So it's like a perception of what everyone else wants them to do and what their role is. If it's a

Cindy:
Totally.

Katie:
principal, they're like, I want this, but my teachers won't do it. Or the parents don't do it, or my superintendent, right? So it's a combination of everybody else, which is why we always get everyone in the same room, so they can't say it. Because when they all say what they want, they realize everybody is more on the same page than not. And now it's time to get to work together.

Cindy:
So at a district or state level, is there really any barrier or is it just all in our heads?

Devin:
I think it's mostly in our heads. The one sort of externality that I would say, I'm still trying to figure out how we bring it in is higher education. And, you

Cindy:
UGH!

Devin:
know, the transition from K-12 to higher ed with the traditional application process. I think eventually we'll figure out how to do what Katie just said, which is like bring them into a broader conversation. Cause I think they also want the same thing. But that's an externality that does

Cindy:
It's

Devin:
make

Cindy:
a barrier.

Devin:
it quite challenging. So I think that's down the road something that we will get better with.

Katie:
And I would say, yeah, and there are models, right? There are kids still going to college that don't have a traditional GPA system. It's not as easy, but there are models where it's not a complete barrier. The other thing is people will use standardized tests. Well, I can't because of the standardized tests. And we have models of people who are doing amazing things and still giving their kids the standardized test. The thing that they're doing is they're not seeing it as the only goal. They're using it as input and as one level and they're shooting above that to teach the skills that are really critical

Cindy:
It's

Katie:
and

Cindy:
the floor.

Katie:
allowing kids to, right. And then saying, great, if we are setting the bar higher than

Cindy:
No problem.

Katie:
the standardized test, then kids, we are of course teaching kids how to read and write and compute and be able to. analyze information and we're doing it in a really meaningful way that's authentic, where they're engaged and so they'll do well on a test. But it's not the end all be all. It is part of the system. And I think that's one of the barriers is we've seen it as the end goal. And when you see standardized testing as the end goal, you've lost kids before you even had them. Right.

Cindy:
Yes.

Katie:
And so if we don't have kids who are engaged and we don't have young people, teachers who are engaged in what they're teaching, then we don't even have people showing up to teach them the skills we need them to learn. So that's in our head too.

Cindy:
Yes, standardized tests are one data point and they are the floor. And if you're planning backwards from that, then it's going to be terrible. Leaders, hear this, please.

Devin:
Yeah,

Cindy:
Amazing.

Devin:
correct. Yeah,

Cindy:
Anything

Devin:
well,

Cindy:
you wanted

Devin:
and

Cindy:
to

Devin:
just,

Cindy:
add to that, Devin?

Devin:
I kind of doubling down on the, the examples we gave are still very much like, it's mostly our own conditioning. It's mostly our own conditioning. We made the systems as structures as people that we occupy and we can remake those systems and structures as well. And I think we should not be constrained by these perceived obstacles if we... Our learner centered, if we're focused on what's best for each and every one of us as a learner, if that's our ethical core, if that's our motivation, these yeah-butts should not impede us from doing the right thing.

Final 3 (50:28)

Cindy:
love it. All right, I think that's a gorgeous spot to pause. So I have a final set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes in the show. So are you both ready for the final three?

Katie:
Ready

Cindy:
Okay,

Devin:
Yes.

Cindy:
question number one. What is the book that you've read that has had the most profound impact on your practice?

Katie:
That's really hard.

Cindy:
I didn't

Devin:
I'm

Cindy:
say

Devin:
gonna let

Cindy:
they were

Devin:
you

Cindy:
the

Devin:
think

Cindy:
easy

Devin:
Katie,

Cindy:
final

Devin:
because

Cindy:
three.

Devin:
I had one come to mind real fast, which was Leadership in New Science by Margaret Wheatley.

Cindy:
What was your aha from that book?

Devin:
Oh, I mean, I could talk for a long time about it. Basically that there's inspiration from the universe that should inform the ways in which we interact as humans and that these are deep, enduring principles that are really meaningful.

Cindy:
Love it. Katie.

Katie:
I'm going to cheat. I'm looking at all my books and I'm going to... One of the books that has had the most profound impact is because I was part of the process. So my friend George Kroos wrote The Innovator's Mindset and from that book, I was able to see him write it and be part of the process. So not only the ideas were really impactful and I think really important, but being part of the process. really was like impactful for me as an educator and as a learner and inspired me to start doing my own writing and thinking. So that's it's cheating, but it's also there's so many, so many amazing books. It's hard to say from the

Cindy:
great

Katie:
beginning.

Cindy:
answer. Okay, this is my personal research question. It's question number two and it's how do we create both joyous and highly productive workplaces? What's the secret sauce for that?

Katie:
Well, I think, you know, we're all still on the journey trying to make sure that that's the case. That's one of the core things for us, you know, in in leading this organization. Um, we try and orient to individuals and I hope the team listening would agree with this, like knowing people's strengths, valuing them for who they are and getting people in places where they feel successful. Um, but also similar to what we would say in the classroom, providing really clear vision of what we're trying to accomplish and a lot of autonomy and agency to actually make that happen.

Cindy:
clarity as well as that individualization. So I know where I'm going but I can put my spin on it.

Devin:
Yeah.

Katie:
Yeah.

Devin:
I

Cindy:
Cool.

Devin:
also, we've had some conversations with different groups about, you know, is it possible to save the world and savor the world and can you do both at the same time? And I, your question sort of gets at that. Like, can you be productive and joyful at the same time, or are they exclusive of one another? And I would advocate that when you're doing meaningful work, that's good for others, that it is joyful and productive. And so. Part of the reframe I would give there is do good work in the world and sort of takes care of itself. And the one thing I might add just procedurally, because I tend to be pretty even in my disposition, is you've got to also ask for feedback from people. How's this working for you? What can I do differently? And that feedback helps us each to learn and grow and improve and help make those conditions ones where you're doing both. saving and savoring productive, joyful work.

Cindy:
I hadn't heard that phrasing before, I really like that.

Katie:
Yeah. And joy is different to different people. So I think that like people orient to like the golden rule, treat people as you want to be treated. I think it's beyond that, whatever the platinum rule, like you need to treat people as they want to be treated.

Cindy:
Yes.

Katie:
And so you have to know people, you have to ask for feedback and understand what they want. And so that's something that I continually strive for. What is it that you need to find joy in this work? And I find it's always different depending on context and depending on the circumstance.

Cindy:
Very cool. Okay, final question here of the final three. If you could stand up on a stage and give advice to all the leaders in the world, right? Like what would be the one thing that you'd say that you think would have the largest impact?

Katie:
Well, I know what you're gonna say, Devon, so you can go first and then I'll build off it.

Devin:
She knows me well. I often end my talks going back to Margaret Wheatley in two questions, who cares and what's possible. Ask the question about who cares, and you're going to widen the circle of involvement and inclusion. And when you bring people together who care about something, and then you ask the question what's possible, anything can be done. And so the leader's role is to continually ask those two questions, who cares, what's possible.

Cindy:
beautiful.

Katie:
And

Cindy:
Katie.

Katie:
I will add on to that asking that you got to ask and listen to learners. What are the experiences of the learners who are in the system? What are their goals? What are their aspirations? Listen to them. They often have the most amazing ideas and we too often underestimate the young people in our systems.

Cindy:
I love that. I'm so excited for the way you see education in the future and the work that you're doing to make that future a reality now. And I just, I think that's really cool. It's such a pleasure to get to talk to you both and hear both the practical and aspirational side of it.

Katie:
Thanks for having us. Very fun.

Devin:
Yeah, appreciate the conversation and look forward to staying connected to see what's possible together.

Cindy:
Thanks so much.

Devin:
Thank you.