Getting to know Jen Abrams (2:54)
Cindy: Alright, thank you so much for being here.
Jennifer Abrams:
I’m excited to be here.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah, it'll be fun.
Cindy:
I'm excited. Can you set the stage for our listeners, Jennifer? What is the work that you are most passionate about?
Jennifer Abrams:
I'm interested in the work that I think is important that isn't done in schools. And this is my elevator pitch. We have credentials in how to teach students our subjects and our grade levels. We don't have credentials in how to talk effectively to each other. And so what I'm most passionate about is putting onto the front burner, the importance of adult to adult communication. and developing our ability to do that in schools. That's it.
What is a tough conversation? (3:37)
Cindy:
It’s such an important topic for leaders because there's so much hesitation around having tough conversations. Can you give some examples of what is a tough conversation? What are the types of tough conversations that you coach leaders through?
Jennifer Abrams:
So my first book was Having Hard Conversations, and I wrote that because of the hesitations that you are sort of bringing up. And I say in my workshops that a hard conversation could be interpersonal. It could be how you work with somebody or how somebody's working with you or not working with you in a way that's really productive. That's a hard conversation for some people because they don't know. Is that something I can talk about? You know, this isn't about the performance, it's not about the task. And the answer is I do believe in any sort of job description, there's something about collaboration and professionalism. And so it's a valid hard conversation, but it's still hard. Sometimes people have a hard conversation with a teacher or an admin assistant or a supervisor around tasks and responsibilities. systems, protocols, so something that's much more tangible. And it's hard, it's hard because they're frustrated, they can't believe that they need to have it, they've got a lot of feelings about not wanting to have to have it, and so that's hard.
Cindy:
Mm-hmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
Sometimes people say, I need to have a hard conversation with a parent. about some challenges that a student is facing, possibly a learning support challenge or a discipline thing. Sometimes, and this is the last thing, people need to talk to a whole group because they're not a department, a team, a grade level, because something hasn't, nobody's buying in, you know, and they need to move on and really move a school. And so those are all the types of hard conversations that I talk to leaders about.
Cindy:
Well, and I think about tough conversations and it's almost like you feel it in your chest and I wonder if everyone feels that they are, if people feel it in different parts of their body, but that weight that comes.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah. And I think that it's fair. And I'm very happy if you have that way. In this way,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
if you are not a person who is feeling the emotional, uh, kind of challenge of it, and you're just a ready fire person who just speaks their mind, doesn't have any thoughtfulness or, or speed bumps around, how might I say this? That's scary to me because it's just so, it's just so almost emotionally violent, right? And bullying. And so I know that people feel it. They lose sleep about it. They feel it in their chest. They get a headache. They get a stomach ache. I work with people on getting clear so that some of that stress gets alleviated. And I work with people to find ways to say things that are necessary, that alleviates it. But I'd rather have a person that has that kind of anxiety around it because it shows that you're being thoughtful.
Cindy:
there's empathy there as opposed to just narcissism? I don't know.
Jennifer Abrams:
ready for power play or something like that. Yeah, absolutely.
Clear is kind. Laying the foundation (7:22)
Cindy:
So before we get into these hard conversations, is there a foundation that we can lay as leaders to almost preempt them or to make it, when that time comes makes it easier, is there a foundation we can lay?
Jennifer Abrams:
I think there is, and I talk a lot about, in the middle of my workshops, I say, you might not even need to have a hard conversation. And people go, really? And I go, yeah, because you need to have clarifying conversations first. So the foundation might be, are we sure that everybody is aware of the expectations? Are we sure that we have put together an understanding of the tasks, an understanding of what that's expected in the classroom, and a clarity around how we're gonna work together. So that all of that is the foundation. When then people trip up, don't do, are being resistant or don't have the capacity to do it, you can at least say, we made it clear, right? So I call it clarifying conversations before hard conversations or clarity before accountability. That's one piece that I think that people don't do. And I've written a number of books about that where you roll out initiatives and you weren't clear about anything and then you're angry at people and you're having hard conversations about stuff that was never clear. The other thing that I think that leaders could also consider, so that's the what we need to make sure we have clarity around. I also think that leaders could lay a foundation of, in this school, the how we talk to each other matters as well. We need to build up our mindsets and our capacities so that when we have these conversations, that we expect them to be done in humane and growth-producing ways. When you're doing it, these are things you've developed in yourself. that you've gone through. And also what does it mean to receive a hard conversation, to be a recipient of something and
Cindy:
Thanks.
Jennifer Abrams:
how do you respond? So there's the what stuff, but there's also the how stuff. And if we laid a foundation in both of those ways, I think we would be in a position to have, they would still be hard, but have better. challenging conversations in a culture that's welcoming it because they already know what's on the plate and how they should be saying it.
Cindy:
So what I'm hearing is that we need to kind of remove our assumptions as leaders, that anytime we assume that something is just going to go a certain way, that that's the first mistake. And I'm wondering, is the way to do that through policies, is it through essential agreements? Are there other practical ways of doing that?
Jennifer Abrams:
I think policies, I think processes, I think systems, I think modeling,
Cindy:
Too soon.
Jennifer Abrams:
I think bringing it up over and over that this is how we roll, this is what we do. That's the piece that I see people don't do. So when you said, is it norms? Is it agreements? Is it we maybe talk about it once and then we assume people are adults and then we don't need to put it. back on the front burner for the next meeting. We are embarrassed that we would need to do that. We think that it's patronizing to do that. I know that I am hypoglycemic and cranky at 4.30 in the afternoon, okay? So I'm not my best adult self. And unless somebody actually reminds me of our agreements and asks me to take a minute of breathing so that I actually try to not, ready, fire. in these meetings or not, I call this in my last book, pigpenning the meeting. Remember, Pigpen from Charlie Brown came in with a bunch of dust and I'm asking people to be thoughtful. So, I think that we need modeling, we need processes, we need repetition, but I also think we need overt, explicit instruction in how... actually do this stuff. So that's why I've written all these books and talked about it, that we assume people, and I am not diminishing that if you have a credential, you're a leader in a school, that you are not a professional. I am not saying that you are not, you are. And you can stretch at those edges to be the better model. And people are always saying to me, you're demystifying a lot of these structures for us. You're naming. that we can do some learning around this stuff. So that I think needs to be put on the front burner. So there's just a lot more of what we think people just already should know. We assume you showed up with, that I think is kind of getting in the way of us actually exhibiting what we want, which is we need some practice. We need some naming, we need some modeling, we need to see it, and then we can do it.
Cindy:
as a leader it almost feels like I might step on your toes this is more of a personal thing to be coaching you on but you're saying no no that is our responsibility is the culture of our community and we have a voice in how that functions and operates.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah, I know that people are like, well, I can't go into your innermost self or your social skills and your emotional intelligence is really dependent on your upbringing and how you see things. And I don't know if I should really venture into your psyche. And I completely, I appreciate that, I do. I always giggle. I very much value the concept of PLCs, right? And so there's a lot of... There's a lot of discussion. There's PLC, there's PLC Plus, there's a lot of stuff. We have to have four questions. What do we want students to know, be able to do? What if they don't know? What if they do know? We're gonna focus on the process. And I say, how about focusing on what it means to be a professional? What it means to be a learner? And what it means to be in a community? So that when the individual shows up to ask those four questions, they have a skillset as well. in order to be living out loud, P, L, and C. And they're like, ooh, ooh, and they back the truck away. We don't have time for that. That's not really what we're focusing on. If you don't focus on it, it's gonna get in the way of you actually being able to focus on what you wanted to focus on. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. So I think it is on the plate of a school leader to actually... do some work around this from their modeling, their learning, their training, their writing up policies and procedures. It has to be everywhere, because it really
Cindy:
Mm.
Jennifer Abrams:
is, it's impacting a school culture, and that impacts kids.
Cindy:
And that modeling aspect. Leaders, if you feel that you are reactionary in situations, please take the time to read these books because nothing kills a culture faster than that. And so if you're modeling that reactionary culture, gosh, it's just devastating.
Jennifer Abrams:
Right. And I talked to a principal yesterday. We were working. I was doing an open cohort around this newest book. Da-da-da-da-da, putting it up. And she said, I have some work to do. Even as the leader, I do not build my own resiliency when people give me feedback. I get defensive.
Cindy:
Mmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
I feel like in my job, I have to be my way or the highway and much more definitive. And I maybe need to. model suspending certainty, you know, and she just recognized that if she's
Cindy:
Nice.
Jennifer Abrams:
reactionary, it's oozing into the school.
Jen’s tips for effective feedback (15:33)
Cindy:
Love that. You brought up feedback, and I feel like I'm hearing more and more about feedback, the importance of feedback. Everybody wants more feedback, but people really don't know how to give it, right? So do you have any top tips for us on how we can give effective, caring, helpful feedback?
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah, I think I have a dear friend, Joellen Killian. And Joellen Killian actually has written about feedback and what she says is pretty transformational in this way. The person that's the recipient of the feedback, if they are capable of doing it, needs to say, I am seeking feedback.
Cindy:
soon.
Jennifer Abrams:
Here's where I would like you. to help me, I'm on my journey of improving. I can look at it and work, and you can be my coach and my cheerleader and my thought partner on it, but you are helping me in my process of getting, of receiving feedback. Like I tell you what I'm working on, I have my own goals, and then you do it. And most people are like, no, no, no, feedback is for an administrator to give to a teacher. I don't need to know what the teacher wants. I don't want the teacher to be on their own responsibility journey about that. And I'm like, no, no, that is, that's really where you're gonna find a self-monitoring, self-modifying teacher who is like in charge of their own journey. So that I think is an important piece. The assumption that we should be on our own journey to improve. We can ask for feedback. in ways that really support us. And then everybody then is on the journey as a thought partner with you. As you're giving that feedback, you have to think to yourself, this is my thing. How might I provide that feedback, hard conversation or any type of feedback, how can I say it in a humane and growth producing way? I want to be able to offer you some input. Could be that I do data. I could give you my take on something. Whatever it is, I can give you my feedback on how it affected me, blah, blah, blah. But the way that I said it better be humane and growth producing. And I have some people who are like, can I give you some feedback on that workshop? And I go, yeah, it'd be great if it comes in a humane and growth producing way. And people go, oh, I'm gonna have to get back to you on that. because they weren't thinking about either of those criteria. They just wanted to tell me what they felt regardless of their words,
Cindy:
Mmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
regardless if it would be useful, regardless if I could take it and change practice. They just wanted to tell me their feeling. So when people say they want feedback, most of the time at the beginning, they would like more, you see me. Do
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
you see me? Do you see my competence? Do you see my trustworthiness? Do you witness and acknowledge my integrity? If you see that, do you name it for me? I'd like you to see me and value me. Then what if somebody gives you feedback it's really more painful to hear? Can it come in a humane and growth producing way? So there are levels of what kind of input you want. Can you ask for it and are people able to do it? But to have a culture of feedback, you
Cindy:
tricky.
Jennifer Abrams:
might get some stuff you do not, it's painful to hear. And I get feedback, I just got a whole entire Google spreadsheet of feedback from something. And it was like, whoa, that's interesting. So then how do I, how have I developed myself
Cindy:
Mmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
in actually being able to not just absolutely feel crushed by it, be driven to drink by it? be defensive about it? How can I, what do I need to develop myself to take that feedback or parts of it
Cindy:
and grow.
Jennifer Abrams:
and actually grow? And that's in and of itself its own journey, right? So it's the, it's how do I deliver it, but also how do I receive it? And am I an agent in that? Do I have agency in both places so that I can grow? That's
Cindy:
Well,
Jennifer Abrams:
it.
Cindy:
what I'm hearing there is that leaders feedback isn't about you. Nowhere in the process is it about you. It's about something the teacher initiates. It's a specific task they are working on. And then it's you coming back in ways that you're authentically partnering with them to grow them. And if feedback is anything other than that, then you're probably missing the mark.
Jennifer Abrams:
Right, I think that there is evaluation that each organization or school district has on their plate. And I don't disagree that we need to hold people accountable to standards, that we need to have a common foundational curriculum or instructional framework or whatever, and that you need to make sure that you are with those people. moving toward what the organization or school wants.
Cindy:
Thank
Jennifer Abrams:
Then
Cindy:
you.
Jennifer Abrams:
with that, really kind of saying, let's pair together. We have to do this. Let's make it useful for you. So there might be some stuff that's outside the teacher. Like here are the top 10 things you gotta do, but then which teacher, which of these things would you like me to look for? Where are you developing in order to actually achieve the goals of the organization?
Teachers, take charge of your own learning (21:22)
Cindy:
I think sometimes we feel limited by standards like that. And the thing is, there's a ton of flexibility. If you are a professional who deeply cares about your practice and you're trying to grow, you can always find an element to that that you have agency over and are passionate about. So find, and leaders work with your team until they find that and don't go forward until they actually have a passion. Otherwise you're just pulling people through something and
Cindy:
none of us wanna do that. Ugh.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah, and we're checking boxes.
Jennifer Abrams:
It's not, you don't know how to write it. You don't know what you're talking about. And it's robotic. It's performative. That's super interesting though,
Cindy:
Hmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
because some teachers don't even know what they're doing. what they don't know. They don't even, they're new. It's like, I've never been through an evaluation system. I've never been asked to be a self-authoring person finding my own goals. Or this is really, you're gonna have to maybe consult a little bit and then coach. So sort of be a little bit more directive. Here are some places I think as a new teacher you might wanna, and so you go
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
there. Then, as much as you can. given that what we're trying to do is create self-modifying and self-monitoring individuals in classrooms. We gotta move from that consultative place into exactly what you said, which is being a thought partner on a journey and presuming that everybody in the school is a learner and that teachers
Cindy:
Love that.
Jennifer Abrams:
are in charge of their own stuff. That's, if that is, that's a shift for the school, it's gonna take a minute. It's gonna take the minute. And some, I've had people... people say to me recently about this this last book, I am done in 2024. I'm retiring. There will be
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
no more goals. There will be no more development. I'm not technical development, not adaptive personal development. I am counting the days and ripping the calendar. Right?
Cindy:
yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
I know. But it's happening. Right. And I say, God, I hope my pilot, my doctor, my my tax accountant, don't go, you know what? I'm out of here in 2024, so I'm not gonna learn any more new flight patterns. I'm not gonna learn any more about cancer. I'm not gonna learn any more about whatever, because I'm out of here next year. That isn't what a professional does.
Cindy:
No.
Jennifer Abrams:
We are a profession. And it's, you know, well, we're not being treated that way, you know, and you treat yourself that way. that we as professionals stay at the top of our game, look at what our best practices, look at the research, and then improve because we wanna sleep better at night because we got in it for doing what was right for students. And so.
Cindy:
And beyond that, I think there's this sense of joy and pride
Jennifer Abrams:
Uh-huh.
Cindy:
that like, I would be so interested to see. I bet there's studies out there that there must be a correlation between joy at work and a sense of evolution, growth and development
Jennifer Abrams:
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely mastery, autonomy, purpose, whatever Dan Pink. Me and Dan.
Cindy:
That I have ownership over. Can we just all get Dan Pink as like the little angel on our shoulder?
Jennifer Abrams:
But it is. It's about, I mean, when he says purpose, autonomy, and whatever, he's really presuming agency. He's saying that's where the joy comes from. And some people would say, but I've been told. It's, I am subject to the curriculum being directed to me. I am subject to the district saying, within, within, you know, first off, can you bring joy as a United agent, you know, at the airport? They have to do things in a certain way.
Cindy:
Right.
Jennifer Abrams:
There's some process there, but they can also do it in a way that brings them joy, that brings us. a pleasant experience. You know, there is something, even though something has been required of you, you still have choice and agency in how you wanna do it. So that's just, that's it. But
Cindy:
love that.
Jennifer Abrams:
yeah.
When is it time to have a tough conversation (25:43)
Cindy:
I'd love to pivot a little bit and talk about, because I'm sure some of the listeners are in the spot where they're thinking, I might have to have a really tough conversation here, and I don't know if it's the time to do that, I don't know if it's appropriate to do that. Might you give some guidance of when is it time I have to say something?
Jennifer Abrams:
So the three questions that I always ask prior to the timing question and all that, is this something that is educationally or professionally unsound? Is this something that is physically unsafe? Is this something that is emotionally damaging to either adults or students? And if any of that happens, do we need to have hard conversation? would it serve to ask a question and be a coach? Or would that just be inauthentic and fake? You're like, help me understand, Cindy, when you called that kid an idiot, I'm just, I'm just, I'm not a query. No, the answer is you can't do that, right? You have to say that, right? So those three are my three first questions. So if any of those things are happening, it's like, you know, those things like move to the next thing. like arrow, next thing. You're gonna have to, maybe you need to have a hard conversation. Now. Have a high is this the right time to have the conversation and it is these are not obstacles these are what I call speed bumps and they're in chapter 3 of my first book like When should I have this conversation is that not just should I have it? When should I have this conversation during the day? When can they hear it is what I'm going to say doable for them to do is this something that? I should be having the conversation about it. Should it be somebody else that has the conversation? There's like a whole chapter of questions to think about before you speak up. Not to have you not speak up, but to have you think before you speak up. And two questions that I think your listeners need to think about is, first one, do I know what the real problem is? period, like can I name it neutrally? Have I already had a clarifying conversation about it? If I have, can I say it neutrally? I call it, don't do a verbal paper cut. Don't do a verbal paper cut. You can't say you're just a totally ineffective colleague. You're an ineffective teacher. It's too vague. Which part are you talking about? So what's the problem? And then the thing that's really hard for people is do I have an action plan for it? So for me, people go, what? They're an adult, they should just already know. They should just get on with it. They should just do it. If the person says, what exactly do you want me to do? I'd rather have you be ready.
Cindy:
Be ready. Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
Ready and not be yelling at them. I've got people who say to me, well, if I have to spell it out like that, they're just not the professional I need.
Cindy:
Oh.
Jennifer Abrams:
And I go, verbal paper cut right there. And then I say, do you wanna be right or effective? And they're like, I want to be right. And I'm like, but to be effective, you might need to have a few ideas. So there's a series of questions that I would pose to whoever is listening in terms of do-ability and personal association and all that stuff. But the two key points are, can I really tell you what the problem is? And if somebody asks me, what do you want me to see instead? Do I have some ideas? And that I think leads us to our conversation in a better way. But most people move right past all that and they just go do ready fire.
Cindy:
They just put out the fire. They go, oh, there's a fire. I need to get my fire hydrant.
Jennifer Abrams:
I mean, right, and they do it, they say something and then the person's like, what, what? I didn't understand that. I don't know exactly what you're talking about. You're too vague. You haven't been clear. And then they get more defensive because you haven't been thoughtful. And so, lots of-
Cindy:
that was such a freeing almost litmus test. For me, I, Hemin Ha, as a leader of should I, shouldn't I, I don't know, and just being able to say out loud, I feel this is unsound, I feel this is unsafe, or I feel this is damaging, it's such powerful language. And to be able to say, hey, I don't wanna have these conversations with you, and this is unsafe for our students. You know, like,
Jennifer Abrams:
It's
Cindy:
mm-hmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
going to be troubling, but of blessed memory, former Congressman John Lewis, who passed away, who of good trouble, he would always say, was the person that marched with Dr. Reverend Martin Luther King. He was a civil rights guy, and he would say, people need to get into trouble, necessary trouble.
Cindy:
Right.
Jennifer Abrams:
And so it's troubling. The question is, if you see those three things, is it necessary to speak up? And the answer is yes.
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
Because you have to go past your discomfort to what you're doing in your role as a leader at a school, which is upholding the safety and the academic rigor and the word of what a student needs at that school. And that might mean for you to get into necessary trouble. And so we have to build up a skill set to do that.
Don’t let the amygdala drive the bus (31:15)
Cindy:
What are those kind of internal or external resources that support having these kinds of conversations?
Jennifer Abrams:
I think that the more that, and it's an external resource, I give people in the book a scaffold, and it's an outcome map. It's really a way to think cognitively, and we'll get back to why that's an internal resource as well, cognitively about the conversation. What's the problem? If I'm looking at it as a growth agent and presuming that I can get... past the problem, what do I want to see instead? What does it look like and sound like? If I can back up the truck and think as somebody who can look from the balcony, why might the person not be doing it? What about some supports that I could provide? What do I need? All these kinds of questions in that first book are there. And what people say is when they start doing that thinking, about moving past the problem, they leave the emotion and they go into the cognitive.
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
It lessens the worry because the more that you look at what you're asking for, at what you have put down on paper, you go, this is what a teacher should do. This is what a teacher should do. This isn't me being weird, mean, unreasonable, irrational.
Cindy:
It's unreasonable.
Jennifer Abrams:
There are 72 other teachers on the campus that do this. This is what is expected. Okay, I'm not crazy. I'm not over the top. I'm not unreasonable. But they have to think it through so that they get that courage. And that's what I mean by it's an external resource to go through and you could have somebody work it with you. You could do it yourself. I've got samples. But to me, it then becomes almost like a meditation because then you just... down. You calm down, you look at it and you become less anxious.
Cindy:
Well, and to me, it computes so much with what we understand of the brain. It's almost like when these things happen, it's like you flip your lid, right? You're working from this animalistic part of your brain. And how do we take a breath and bring our prefrontal cortex back into the driving position?
Jennifer Abrams:
Thank you Yes, yes. The amygdala hijack, right?
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
And then you feel subject to this terrible thing and you've got to get back into a space of agency and a space of cognitive capacity. And this slows you down again. I have a lot of what I call speed bumps in my book where I'm just like, I need to stay more here. Oh, here are some things to think about. Oh, these are thinking things. They're not like emotional things. And so that's hugely helpful. Yeah.
Time and Space for tough conversations (34:13)
Cindy:
I love that. Well, this might be kind of silly, but have you done research around like time of day, time of week, spaces? Does that have that big of an impact or not really?
Jennifer Abrams:
Well, I have people who are like, I have no capacity to like, the sun is out, the moon is in Venus, I can bring them in, they have all the time in the world to be in the room, I have all the time in the world. Logically, that would be wonderful. And it's not possible some of the time. You want to consider. are they going to be with students within the next 20 minutes?
Cindy:
Smart, yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
Will they not be able to kind of
Cindy:
function.
Jennifer Abrams:
self-regulate between now and then? Is it probably not a good idea, and this is my thing, to not do it at the cars with your, opening up your door on a Friday? And I know, right, and people do that because, and then they say, well, we just wanted to give them a minute. to just a weekend of process. I'd be, you know, stomach upset, insomnia, crying, getting online. I think, honestly, this is my thing. If you say it in a humane and growth producing way, Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, that's what I'd say. So that if somebody needs to come back to you, if you
Cindy:
They can.
Jennifer Abrams:
need to check in, you do it as if this is just, you know, we're still in relationship. This isn't fractured us. You don't get to just go. I mean, I had new teachers throw up all weekend, that people were like, I need to talk to you Monday morning, bye. Terrible, terrible stuff happening. So that's one thing. So I say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. The other thing is location. What level, well, some people say to me, I can't do it in any other place but my office because of privacy.
Cindy:
Okay.
Jennifer Abrams:
Okay. And I say, I get that. Okay. I appreciate that. I can't go down to their room. Their room is, you know, it's too close to everybody else. So I have to have it in there. If you have it in your office, that already going to the principal's office has a level of intensity
Cindy:
It's value laden.
Jennifer Abrams:
That it's right. It's just scary. So what do you, if you want to decrease the level of intensity and it is in your office, do you want to sit side by side on a couch? Do you want to sit side by side? at a table. If you want to up, I knew one guy who said, no, by the time that I want to have this conversation, I'm behind my desk and they're in front of the desk. And I have that deliberately there because I want to increase the level of intensity. I'm very specific. I want it in my office. I want to be behind my desk. I want my name, you know, like I am adding, right? And then think about like, uh, got the Godfather, the Godfather There's like a whole thing. Somebody said that in the Navy, when you do interrogations, you have a file with their name on it that they can see in front of you with maybe fake paper in it, it doesn't matter, but just even like props, can like increase the intensity.
Cindy:
So theatrical, Jennifer!
Jennifer Abrams:
Seriously, I was like, dang, you know, if you don't want that level of intensity, two cups, two cups of coffee, two bottles of water, my boss in the English department, I always give a shout out to Tim Farrell. We had a big bullpen when I was a teacher, and he would take us and we would walk and we would walk on the track around the football field. And that allowed for two people looking not at each other. It allowed for oxygen and movement, which during nervous things might
Cindy:
Love that.
Cindy:
So good.
Jennifer Abrams:
So you can change stuff up and make choices. If you can make choices. I mean, you know, people say, it's not possible, I can't get them for that amount of time. But just to be aware that even within your office, you can make choices.
Cindy:
set the vibe, the vibe that you and maybe that is an intense vibe, maybe it's a more of a partner vibe, but you've got to know that going in not just let the environment catch you off guard.
Jennifer Abrams:
Correct.
Cindy:
I like that.
Jennifer Abrams:
Love that. Thank you.
Collective efficacy: Why we need to grow up at work (25:43)
Cindy:
Okay, I want to pivot now because I am, I'm so excited about your new book. Like I can't contain it a little bit because it is everything that I'm interested in. It's collective agency, it's individual, it's everything. And even the title, this idea of growing up at work. So can you explain a little bit what is this book?
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah. So I was a teacher and then I was a new teacher coach and then I've been a consultant. And so I started at 22 and I'm 56 now. Okay. So we're talking 34 years in the business. And I've stayed in K-12 education in just a variety of roles. This is something that I have never seen people put a focus on. And there's a lot of reason, doesn't mean it's excuses, but there's a lot of reasoning for that. This is that piece of, we have so much on our plate to focus on with students that we haven't put on our plate our development. And if we put on our plate PD, professional development, we say, learn more about this reading technique, learn this instructional strategy, and it's all technical stuff about our practice. learn to do the master schedule, learn how to do a budget if you're a leader. I mean, it's just, but it's the job. Okay. This is what I think is not brought up. Do I want to say getting in the way of our profession, moving forward? That sounds harsh. I think it's the idea that if we know, collectively, the collective efficacy, that if we know the research says, if we as adults believe in an ability to work together to get work done actually will ultimately increase student achievement. If we know the research says that relational trust between adults actually can. have a greater likelihood that student achievement will go up. If we have all these pieces of research that say adults working well together is a pivotal factor in increasing student achievement, then each person on a team needs to be their best self to show up in that collaborative stuff, and then things can happen. So I say in a more cheeky way, because there's a lot of words, there's an I in team.
Cindy:
Cute.
Jennifer Abrams:
That's what I say. And so where might we, where might I grow up? And I don't mean it in a diminishing way, in a patronizing way. That's why the up is in parentheses. Where might I develop myself so that I can be a better value add, so that I can be a better educator? And I thought about five different places that I've seen over 34 years that... that if I really amped up my understanding in those ways or my capacity to do these five things, I would be a better teacher and a better colleague.
Cindy:
I don't want to take your whole afternoon, but is there a way to tell us the five things or would that just take way too much time? We should read the book.
Jennifer Abrams:
No, one, know your identity or identities. That could be your DEIJ work that you need to get done. That could be your work style understanding because not knowing enough about how you see the world and you might see the world differently than others is gonna have you bump up and maybe smash up against other people and you need to focus on that. So that's one. Two, suspend certainty. I do want you to stop at stop signs, be certain, be certain, be certain. Stop at a stop sign. Okay, so there's times for certainty and there are also times for something like this. How do you see this? What are you looking at from where you're sitting? Help me understand from your perspective how this might go. You're suspending your certainty that you have the right way of looking at something. And might we be able to engage in a gray space a little bit better if we did that? Take responsibility for your side of interactions.
Cindy:
Cool.
Jennifer Abrams:
So I am really frustrated about something and I wanna talk to you about it. Do I express it as a concern or do I have, I've already amped it up so I'm expressing it as a complaint. And might I scale back so that you could hear me before I start oozing all my drama onto you. If I... need clarification. Can I say it in a way that's purposeful and focused as opposed to, I don't understand, which is what we'll do. And those hard conversations and all this stuff, that's taking responsibility for your actions. The other one that's internal and individual is build your resiliency. Not, and I'm not trying to be diminishing, like grow up, you know, stomach, you know, you know, work on your stomach to manage things. It's... It's so important that if stuff is coming our way, we have found strategies to manage our frustration. We found strategies to manage our, uh, discomfort around uncertainty. If we don't have those, we ooze drama into, into our meetings. And we're doing all of this to engage in reciprocity, to be the value add to the team. and we hope everybody else is also on the journey to be a value add to you. These things are there or not there, whether we talk about it or not, I would prefer to talk about it because I think they're the hidden curriculum that's getting in the way of us being able to be collectively efficacious.
Cindy:
because we talk about self-care, right? That's been like the new, oh, take care of yourself, take care of yourself. And I would argue this is the way you take care of yourself is know your narrative, know the way you're showing up, know how it feels in your body when you're stressed and how you react when your cup is not very full. Like
Jennifer Abrams:
Yes.
Cindy:
how much better of a teacher, a coworker, parent, mother, whatever you are, how much better you are at all of those things.
Jennifer Abrams:
I know. And some people are like, we can't put this on people.
Cindy:
Mmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
They need a massage. I go, I'm all for massage. I'm all
Cindy:
Same.
Jennifer Abrams:
for self care. I think people also might need, they'll need self, everybody's always gonna need self care, but they will be less stressed when they show up in meetings. They will be less frustrated that they have to work with each other. They will be... better able to do that if we all showed up with these capacities and that would lower the frustration level.
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
And so
Cindy:
So,
Jennifer Abrams:
expect these things. Develop, develop these ways. I think we would be better.
Cindy:
I'm on your boat. As a leader, how much time do you think we should dedicate to this? Because it's one thing to say it, but we gotta give time. That's leaders, we gotta give time.
Jennifer Abrams:
we have no time when don't talk. So I'm working on just in the last year or two since the book came out, just developing a language and an awareness that this is in alignment with what's already on people's plates around standards for California educational leaders or how to make the link with teacher standards. I'm just in the awareness piece. Now, now I'm working as we move into the next year. with people around, and let me see if I can find that thing. Now that we have the awareness, how might this be used individually? How might we use it as a team? How can we be more intentional about coming back to these facets? I haven't, so in response to your question, I haven't figured out how much time, like do we need... Do we need six one-hour meetings just to put the awareness of these facets on the table? Could that be your one? Could we then after that, depending on what's coming down the pike, amplify for another six hours different facets as relates to common challenges that are coming up,
Cindy:
Mm.
Jennifer Abrams:
a strategic plan shift? an accreditation. You know what I mean? I don't know quite
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
yet. I would guess six hours for the first year minimum, maybe even.
Cindy:
Okay.
Jennifer Abrams:
And then I have people who say, what? We can't possibly do that. We can maybe get the department heads or the team leads to do it. And then they could maybe dribble in 15 minutes of something. And I go, yeah,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
maybe. Let me give you an example. One school called me and they said, we are going to do a PD day. And nobody wants to do what we want on the PD day. They're already angry that the PD day is happening. Can you come and just be the first hour? And in that first hour, can you, I'm gonna tell you what our tasks are. Can you focus on which, whatever you decide, one or two of the facets. that need to be highlighted, that need to be put out there, that they need to really bring it in a more thoughtful way so that they can attend to this task.
Cindy:
Nice.
Jennifer Abrams:
So I said, okay. And so I did that one hour and people were in a much better space
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
because it's been, you know. So I think it depends on who you are and how much leaders need to do it, but I'm happy to work with people. I mean, people that are like, I've got four hours, a new team, we want to be all on the same plate. Can you give me a curriculum out of the whole book? And I'm like, can you make something up? Give me, I'll put post-its on the pages you want, you know? And I'm like, yeah. So we made up a little mini curriculum, right?
Cindy:
Nice!
Jennifer Abrams:
Different people have different questions for me, depending on what they do. But I would say six to nine hours is the initial piece of what people need to do to even put it on their plate. Even know. of expectations and I can immediately align it to the standards of that school.
Cindy:
and if we're going to value SEL with students,
Jennifer Abrams:
Yes.
Cindy:
how might we use this as a way to say, hey, trickle down. If we're
Jennifer Abrams:
Listen.
Cindy:
not taking care of ourselves, then we can't expect students to be doing these practices either.
Jennifer Abrams:
Right, I totally agree. And if we expect kids to have a growth mindset, we need to have a growth mindset. And we need to say, we're always on the journey. In the state of California, we have developing as a professional, as one of the teaching standards. It doesn't say you're developed. It's developing, you're always developing. So that's the deal.
Cindy:
Cool. love that.
Cindy:
Are there any strategies or any tools from the book that a leader could plug and play and use today that would make a difference?
Jennifer Abrams:
If they got the book, Plug and Play, that's the dream of the book. Okay.
Cindy:
Okay, cool.
Jennifer Abrams:
The dream of the book is in every chapter, because I am a PD person. So it's a PD person's dream. Every chapter, there are guiding questions. Every chapter, there's a short reading. Every chapter, there's a continuum that people can look at or a self-assessment. There are at least six to eight exercises that they could use. That could be 20 minutes. you know, in a PD or at
Cindy:
Awesome.
Jennifer Abrams:
a staff meeting. And the fun part is that there are at least two QR codes that are there,
Cindy:
Cool.
Jennifer Abrams:
little Vimeo two minute videos of me telling a story that aligns with that standard. And then you could say, how does this relate to your work? And so you could do 10 minute PD on that. I have people who out a quotation and start with that. I know people who, it's just, you can, so is there anything that a school leader could do? They can play, plug and play with this in any way they want. Let's go.
Growing teacher capacity for complexity (51:34)
Cindy:
such important work. Like, I don't know, COVID happened and it's like a switch flip for me. And I started all the things I was teaching my kids to do, I started doing myself. You know, I started journaling and doing affirmations and being reflective. And it just changed my whole life. And so I think the fact that you're calling this up, this need for teachers to grow as individuals and not just as practitioners
Jennifer Abrams:
anyone.
Cindy:
is so essential and is the work of the next generation of teachers, I think.
Jennifer Abrams:
I think so too. And I know that we haven't focused on it in education. Adult developmental theory, Bob Keegan has done a bunch of work and a lot of other people trying to bring it into nonprofits, bringing it into education. It came, and I'll tell you what's interesting, the corporate and C-suite and Be The CEO, those guys have been talking about this stuff. because it'll make you money and the business. We have these capacities, because you'll be a better leader and you'll be able to lead with vision and
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
you'll have strength. And so we're gonna support the heck out of you and we're gonna give you a leadership coach and you're gonna work on all these things, but it's gonna make us money, right? That's what happens. And there are many people that have worked at Harvard, they did their PhDs and then they went off and did all this stuff and made oodles of money. Education, there hasn't been a focus on this because we have so much on our plate. We have so much on our plate, but let me give you what's on our plate right now. School violence, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, trauma-informed instruction, chat, GPT, different assessment things, working across languages. That requires all of these For better or worse, what's on our plate now require us to be bigger people,
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
being able to handle stuff that's coming and we don't want it to be coming at us and us being subject to it and feel so, so under it and so sad and so overwhelmed. We need to figure out what can we grow within ourselves so that we can be more in a space of ownership agency and... and capacity. And so we got to, we got to step up and it's, it's not going to get, it's not going to get any easier, right? I mean, the world is getting even more complex. So what are the inner strengths that we need to cultivate in order to actually do it?
Cindy:
It's getting more complex so we need to as well.
Jennifer Abrams:
Correct.
Cindy:
I love that, I love it.
Jennifer Abrams:
I can't.
Jennifer Abrams:
So we need to show up in bigger ways. And some people are like, no, but this is just a job. I just, I come, I just want to learn my stuff. It's just not about that anymore. You are, for better or worse, we are a lot more than just teaching whatever our subject is anymore. We are, and I want all the resources and I want all the supports I do. And I'm not suggesting that we can take it all on. And... And we need to grow ourselves to be able to, to be, as I kept writing in the book, better educators and bigger human beings.
School Leaders’ Countdown: The Final 3! (54:54)
Cindy:
I love it. Well I think that's a gorgeous spot to pause. I've got a final set of three questions that I ask every guest who comes on the show.
Jennifer Abrams:
Great.
Cindy:
So are you ready
Jennifer Abrams:
Great.
Cindy:
for our final three?
Jennifer Abrams:
Yes, I'm ready.
Cindy:
Okay, number one. What is the book that has had the most profound impact on your practice?
Jennifer Abrams:
This is gonna sound very strange because it's not about practice. Because practice, I feel it goes right back into the technical. There was a book by Peter Kestenbaum called Freedom and Accountability. And when I was looking outside myself, blaming other people, uh, being angry that the system wasn't good. I read about this and it was really about me taking ownership for my part of things, having, uh, recognizing that I had freedom to quit that job.
Cindy:
Hmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
I had freedom to move on if I, and I've just never, I never felt that before that book, it was a very scary book to read, but it changed my life because I realized that I had. I had the freedom to make some shifts and it was necessary. And it changed my work in my schools. It changed everything. Freedom and Accountability by Peter Kestum.
Cindy:
I love that. Well, because that's all you can control as yourself. You can't control the outside.
Jennifer Abrams:
You know that other people just want to wait for other people to tell you how much you're going to make and when you're going to start school and when you can go to the bathroom and when you can eat because that's what schools do. We wait
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
for other people. And that's just the way systems have to be. Within that structure, we still have some freedom and we need to have agency. So yeah.
Cindy:
Love it. Okay, question number two. This is my personal research question. Because I find in conversations with leaders, there tends to be kind of a focus one way or the other. Some leaders tend to focus a lot unlike metrics, performance, meeting our goals. Some leaders tend to focus more on sustainability, joy, making it to where we can grow our collective efficacy. How do we find the balance between those two things? How do we create both joyous and highly productive workplaces?
Jennifer Abrams:
I, in order for me to find joy and to be most productive, I need clarification as to what the parameters are about stuff. Clarity before accountability, right? So
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
I need to know what's in my lane, what I have that I need to do. So I want my leaders to provide me with sort of what's the, what's the work and then provide me with. That's the certainty piece, okay? Then say, we trust you. There's nothing more amazing for me than a client saying to me, here's what we need, we trust that you can make it happen.
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
Call us if you have any questions. But we trust in your capacity, your competence, and we trust in your ethic to be able to do what's right and you're not gonna mess with us or whatever. But so it's like the certainty piece and the autonomy piece. And I think from there, I feel like I'm free within the system to make stuff happen. So that's what I want. I want enough certainty and then enough trust. That's what I think creates joyous, productive. Good.
Cindy:
It's such an aha from your work, is just the importance of clarity and how helpful it is for every stakeholder involved that we just know what's expected of us.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah, I just was talking to somebody about just the 830 to 1 we're working together. And I said, okay, so when do you need a break? And how long are you bringing in lunch? And then it became like, oh, I have a 90 minute session, then I have
Cindy:
Yeah.
Jennifer Abrams:
a 60 minute session, then I have a 70 minute session. Okay, so now I know that. So that's just the story. And also, what are the goals that we need to get done? You know what I mean? So I know where I'm headed and I know how much time I have. And then I also know that she is happy to trust me to design something and she's not gonna micromanage me. She just gave me enough and then I can go. So I want certainty
Cindy:
Mm,
Jennifer Abrams:
in an autonomous.
Cindy:
love it. Okay, final question. You've worked with leaders around the world. You've worked with different industries. You've written books.
Jennifer Abrams:
Yeah.
Cindy:
You're a very cool lady. So if you could stand up on a stage and you had one piece of advice that you could get to every leader in the world that you think would make the biggest impact, what would that piece of advice be?
Jennifer Abrams:
I have two.
Cindy:
Ah, cheater.
Jennifer Abrams:
The first one is really asking yourself, do I want to be right or effective?
Cindy:
Yes.
Jennifer Abrams:
There's a lot of self-protection, there's a lot of blame, there's a lot of stuff. In order to be effective, which is really what I think we want to do, we might need to change up some stuff and get over ourselves. So that's a question I ask myself when I'm in a mood. Do you want to be right or effective? You are right, you're right, this is no fun. Now let's be effective. And move on. That's one thing. The other thing is to just tell people what a person told me at one point, and I don't even know if she's alive anymore. I was just so overwhelmed in a particular situation, and this is in the book as well, and I did this thing. And she looked at me and she said, you haven't even used up nine tenths of what you're capable of.
Jennifer Abrams:
You have what it takes. Now go get them. And I was like, oh, thanks. I feel much more empowered. So I guess the piece of advice I would offer there is just keep telling yourself, you haven't even used up nine tenths of yourself yet. You've got it. You can do it. And then just go on with it. Peter Block will say in a book that he wrote, the answer to how is yes.
Cindy:
Mmm.
Jennifer Abrams:
The answer to how is yes. You have to actually just trust the yes, trust yourself. realize that you need to be effective and then just go for it, right? And that I think is what I've been doing. So those are my two pieces of advice.
Cindy:
I love it. Have to say I've been looking forward to this conversation all week and it just exceeded every expectation I had. Like just the way that you have of calling the importance of just the social emotional side of things and and who we are as human beings and bringing that into the practice is just so liberating I think.
Jennifer Abrams:
That’s so sweet. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's not just about the work. It's about how we choose to bring ourselves to the work. This is all I'll finish with this. Mrs. Kalman's classroom is what I think it is. Somebody is learning how to be a person by watching you. Let that sink in.
Cindy:
Ugh, yes!
Jennifer Abrams:
Right. So if we are if that's what they're watching, not just learning our content or, you know, They're learning us, who are we? And that means we ought to show up in a much bigger way.
Cindy:
I, change is how you show up.
Jennifer Abrams:
So, that's what I'm about. That changes how you show up? That's it. So that's another piece of advice. See, now I have three.
Cindy:
You're going to set a bad example for future guests. Well, thank you so, so much for being on the show. Thank you for your time today and just for your passion and expertise. I really, really appreciate it.
Jennifer Abrams:
Thanks for the opportunity.
