About Kath Murdoch (02:31)
Cindy
Kath, thanks so much for being on the show. My pleasure. Okay, so set the stage for us, Kath. What is the work that you do that you're most passionate about?
Kath Murdoch
Well, the work that I do in general is that I work with educators around the world in the field of inquiry based learning and I think I'm most passionate within that scope about. What inquiry based teaching and learning looks like and sounds like and feels like when you're actually in the classroom, So my passion is probably most strongly with pedagogy.
Cindy
Do you find that that can be kind of the trickiest part of inquiries? What does it actually look like? Not just theoretical?
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, that's the thing that people always ask about. And that's also the thing that makes the most difference to children's learning. I mean, we can plan, we can design, we can have all the. Kind of knowledge of what it could and should be, but it's not until you're in the classroom that the rubber hits the road. And as we all know, it's what educators do and think and say in the classroom itself when they're interacting with children, that really makes the most difference to learning. So I think that's where a lot of our professional energy and professional learning energy should lie.
Personalized inquiry: within or outside of the curriculum? (03:56)
Cindy
Beautiful. Your newest book is all about personalized inquiry. So I'm curious if you can explain for us how is this similar to what we've seen before? So we've all seen, you know, the Kath Murdoch inquiry cycle in our classrooms. What's the difference between that style of inquiry and the personalized inquiry model?
Kath Murdoch
Well, firstly I think it's important to say that when we're talking about inquiry based learning the. The cycle of inquiry, the model that you refer to, is really only one slice of a much bigger pie. You know, we need to always remind ourselves that inquiry is a way of being. It's it's a stance that we take, whether we are leading a school, whether we are support, teacher in a classroom with a what, whatever role we have in a school, we can all bring an inquiry stance. It's a culture, it's a way of being. It's an approach rather than. A cycle. However, The Cycle of Inquiry is a framework that I use to help people design A journey of inquiry with and for their students. The book about personal inquiry really takes, I think of it as inquiry based teaching and learning on steroids. Really, you know it, it takes that basis of. Engaging in shared journeys of inquiry together. So for teachers that perhaps are in a pyp setting, they might think of it as a unit of inquiry. So looking at how we design that over a period of time. So it takes that idea, but it says what if that same process could be used by individuals or small groups to dig into the things that they?
Kath Murdoch
Are interested in that they are passionate about. So it's really giving widening the scope. It doesn't replace the shared inquiry. What it does is supplement or add to. So it's really going down that path of allowing children and teachers actually to personalize the inquiry process. It's not. Just about the individual though, it's also about the contribution they then make to their community.
Cindy
So do you see personalized inquiry as sitting within the curriculum or as part of the curriculum, or does it sit outside of it more like a genius hour?
Kath Murdoch
No, for the most part very much within, but it does depend on your curriculum. So here in Australia I work with the Australian curriculum and it's various iterations from state to state. And for the most part, we find that it's not that hard for children and teachers to back map to elements of the curriculum when they pitch an idea for a personal inquiry. Here in Australia we have. I said of what we call general capabilities in the curriculum, there are key competencies in New Zealand. I think there's something equivalent in the Common Core. These sorts of skills and dispositions can be developed regardless of the content. So at the very least, we always find connections back to those skills. There's always literacy outcomes that we can work towards through personal inquiries. So for the most part, I really see it as sitting inside the curriculum. If we know our curriculum really, really well, and it's something I encourage teachers to do, to really, really have their heads around the curriculum as relevant to the the group that they're working with, it's then kind of easier to let it go and feel comfortable with kids making these sorts of choices.
Guided vs. Open inquiry and the role of curriculum (08:03)
Cindy
So it's still more of a guided inquiry as opposed to an open inquiry.
Kath Murdoch
I don't really use those terms, OK because in in the work that I do as a I work in the primary early years right through to year six mostly and I've never seen inquiry as anything but guided the the teacher has a role that's not. I think some sometimes there can be a misinterpretation that there's. A way of being an inquiry teacher. That means we get to guide and question and support. And then there's this other thing where we're kind of hands off and the kids do it on their own. I find that a problematic distinction in the book. Actually. I have a diagram that's not unlike sort of a set of volume controls, if you like, and I think that my role. Is always to guide. I'm an educator, that's why I am there. But my guidance is going to be the sort of volume of my guidance. Not literally, but you know that the level of guidance, if you like, is going to go be raised or lowered depending on the needs of that child in that moment. So in some inquiries, some children will need less support from me. Because of what they're learning, or how they're going about it, or how they're sharing their learning in other inquiries, they'll need more. So I think it's much more nuanced. And for me personally, as a primary teacher, if I see my role as guide regardless but see my level of guidance as flexible, that's more helpful as a way of thinking about it to me sometimes in a personal inquiry.
Kath Murdoch
I need to be much more supportive and and provide much more scaffolding. And in a shared inquiry, when we're all engaged in something together, I actually might find that the children need less scaffolding. So yeah, the distinction isn't one that I personally find helpful, but I know that again, that's just coming from my perspective.
Cindy
That regardless for guides and were responsive. I think I was more thinking about the curriculum there in in the guided versus open.
Kath Murdoch
But, but as, as I say, if you know your curriculum really well, particularly the skills, the concepts and the dispositions that might be embodied in your curriculum, the literacies, the numeracies. Then you're always going to be looking for opportunities regardless of the content. So if I've got a little 6 year old passionate about dinosaurs and engaging in a personal inquiry into dinosaurs, of course I'm going to support that child with their their interest in dinosaurs themselves. But I'm going to be thinking about the, for example, in our curriculum for that age group. Their children are encouraged to learn about the structure and features of living things and how those structures and features help them survive really common kind of standard right across the world. So I can use, I know my curriculum, so the questioning, the support, the conversations I'm having with that child will be nudging the thinking towards that. So it's not that. I think, well, this is a personal inquiry, so. I'm just going to ignore the connections with the curriculum. I'm going to be trying to make those all the time. I don't. I'm not saying that it's that the curriculum is driving every conversation I'm having either, but it's it's it's personalized and guided. They they don't, they're not two different things.
Cindy
Well, and what a liberating way for a teacher to be able to think about their curriculum. You know that that's not just. Because I'm studying the standard, this is the content that there's a world of opportunity there, and if you're the expert, you can make those connections and be an Inquirer yourself.
Kath Murdoch
Absolutely. And I think it's also getting our head out of that idea that we attend to parts of the curriculum in turn and right now we're doing this. So this is what we're focusing on and rather than to say, well of course there'll be some things that are getting our very. Our our attention at this moment. But if I know my curriculum well enough and something comes up, whether that's in personal inquiry or whether that's in what we think of as these sort of popup spontaneous inquiry moments where I guess the world brings you the curriculum. You know, an event happens that has the children absolutely captivated as a group. I know that there are connections to the curriculum through this event. It's also giving myself permission to go with that. And and to make those connections to the curriculum in that moment, even if it's not something that we're currently focusing on. So it's I think the beautiful thing about deep knowledge of the curriculum is that as I said before, it allows you to not let it boss you around and to be flexible and responsive at the same time as being accountable.
Permission with curriculum (13:34)
Cindy
Amazing. What are the best things that we can do as leaders to empower our teachers in that way, to help them see their curriculum creatively?
Kath Murdoch
Well, certainly encouraging. Well, I'm going to say time. I think that's going to be my answer to a whole lot of questions about what can leaders do to help give your staff. Time. Time within the school day. Not just the expectation that it will always be after school, but give your staff time and opportunities for those focused, collaborative meetings. Time to get to know that. Your your curriculum, A few schools that I work with here, my partner schools here in Australia. We set aside a whole day or two towards the end of the year where teams come together to do a really strong audit of the curriculum and what they feel that they've attended to. Well, we we gather data from the children about their interests and their. What they think is important to learn about in the coming year and then we go through this whole process of looking for the connections and opportunities between those interests and the the curriculum that needs to be attended to for the following year and.
Kath Murdoch
The teams are given a whole day to go through that process, and it means that they are absolutely marinating in the curriculum so that they understand it. The leaders in these schools also encourage staff to do things like, in fact, I was at one of the schools just a couple of weeks ago, and we've got the curriculum standards up on the walls, in the classroom. The children know them. I'm making it sound like we're. That's all we ever talk about it. It's so not, but it it. I think it's just making it less the enemy, you know? Yes, that as leaders, if we can invite teachers to see knowledge of the curriculum as something that is empowering and indeed kind of freeing, like I said before, then I think that rather than using. I think the other thing that that sometimes leaders can inadvertently do is use the curriculum almost as a bit of a weapon of control. You know, well, you can't do that because of the curriculum. Instead of saying, well, I wonder how we could do that and attend to the curriculum. Yes. And they're two very different questions. So a lot of that teachers are looking to leaders for that kind of permission, I think permission to play, permission to be. Responsive, spontaneous and flexible. And I think we give teachers that sense of permission when we when we invite them to see the curriculum in the broader way that I've talked about.
Cindy
So just really giving that autonomy and the time.
Kath Murdoch
Yes, Yeah. And yeah. And and I think really. Providing teachers with lots of opportunities to show each other how they do it. So you know, how you know these kids here that got really fascinated in, you know, the the, the nest that they found outside in the schoolyard and they've done this whole inquiry into this nest. How what connections did you make? Back to the curriculum. How did that work? So one of my favourite schools in New Zealand actually has a lovely routine that that they use which the principal put into place where each of their staff meetings would be held in a different classroom and the beginning of the staff meeting would be hosted by the the teacher in that space and they would. Take the rest of the staff on a bit of a journey of their current inquiry. So they'd stand near their wall and they talk through, here's what we're what we're currently doing and that often raise a problem or a challenge or something that's a bit kind of a sticky moment for them. And then the rest of the staff would engage in a little bit of a kind of problem finding, solution finding moment and I think by that that Leader Perry.
Kath Murdoch
Offering that opportunity on a weekly basis for people to share their stories, it really helped grow everybody's collective understanding of inquiry. And of course, like I said before, it positions the teachers as inquirers and in a strong inquiry community, that's what we want. We want to see everybody seeing themselves as researchers. Teachers are researching their practice. Children, of course, are researching the concepts that we have have brought to them or that have emerged and and principals and leaders are researching their leadership and it's all happening in real time.
Cindy
I love that. Oh, Kath, you touched a little bit then. Just like touching on curriculum as a potential problem area.
Kath Murdoch
But.
Transiency and preserving school culture (19:00)
Cindy
What are some other challenges that you consistently see when schools or leaders take on more increased driven pedagogy? What are the hang ups that are common?
Kath Murdoch
The first thing that comes to mind I think is that interesting challenge that we have when a school becomes a staff often becomes very strong as as a strong inquiry staff and then inevitably. People move on. New staff come in and it often feels like we do the, you know 2 steps forward, one step back or or even a a leadership team will will move on. So I've experienced, I mean I've been working in schools intensively for well, I mean I've been teaching for nearly forty years and at least you know 25 of those years I've been. Really stinked in in professional learning in schools and that would be one of the the number one challenges I see is just how do we sustain the culture when often our strongest people, you know the the the thing that happens is our strongest teachers move on because people recognize their strengths and they're brought into other settings to lead and that's lovely. It's great for them. I think that is one of the challenges is sustaining the culture and I'm not sure what the answer to that is other than making sure that the leadership is really well distributed. So we know that if it's we can have the most amazing, charismatic, passionate, wonderful leaders, but if others aren't empowered in the school to.
Kath Murdoch
Occupy that space with those leaders, then when those leaders go it can so quickly fall down. So much of the strength of a school is dependent on the quality of leadership. So if there's a group of people involved in that and and I work with a school in in Queensland, the principal Zoe Smith there is is stunning and one of her great strengths. Is her capacity to distribute that leadership and to really ensure that there's a big team of empowered leaders in the school. So if and when she goes, I feel that that's a school that will sustain their their passion for a culture of inquiry.
Cindy
Can you share any more about her distributed leadership model? So, like, are there pieces, tips and tricks that we could take as leaders and implement in our community?
Kath Murdoch
She has a really, well, there's lots of things she does. But I I think one of one of the things, and this is, you know, a strategy other great leaders use as well, is that she has a lot of systems in place. So a lot of routines and systems. And just as in the classroom, strong inquiry teachers are actually those teachers that have predictable routine systems and rituals that keep a community. Reasonably predictable and ordered and and safe so that the spontaneous and flexible can happen. Well, I think the same is true of a school. So when there are systems in place, for example decision making system, so there's in fact I'm not 100% sure of all the detail of it but what I do know in her school is that when there are decisions to be made. There's a process that they go through. That means small teams. Data is collected from teams, from teams of teachers. That data is brought to the leadership group. Then recommendations are made to the staff. Conversations are had, decisions are voted on. It's very inclusive the the decision making process is about. Well, does it? It's not all made at at the top and brought down. It's very much a collective and collaborative approach to decision making that can sometimes be quite weighty, but because she's got these very efficient routines for data collection and she uses the same system each time, everybody knows how it works, so it's actually quite efficient.
Kath Murdoch
But it means that people don't feel that things are being decided for them or to them, but they are part of the growth of the school and the directions that it's going in. So then staff have ownership. And doesn't that mirror beautifully the way that we like to operate in the classroom, that we invite our children into the decisions that we're making? And this is, of course, a really big feature of. And inquiry community as a school is that the kinds of approaches that we champion with our young people, we need to be mirroring that as leaders. If we're going to bang on about student agency, then where is teacher agency? If we're going to say that children should, should have some choice and voice in what they are learning, they're now teachers also need say in professional learning. Voice and choice in terms of their professional growth. So there's a lot of symmetry, I think, in an inquiry school between the stance the educators take with children and the stance the leaders take with their staff.
Cindy
And what I'm hearing there is that it's not all just about. Policies, right. A lot of it is about capturing and documenting the practices that we're doing as leaders, that that might be the best gift that we can give to create a sustainable culture, is writing it down and, yeah, sharing our why, which I think a lot of leaders.
Kath Murdoch
Don't do. I think that's a really important point. I think, you know, I'm again, I'm thinking of schools that I work with, with the leaders, get to a point in their time with a staff. It's not always straight away. But once they've been working this way for a while where they invite the staff to work with them to identify their values, their principles and then their practices. So as we see in a lot of schools and they make that public, as you say, Cindy, they document that and it is there for everybody to see and it might read something like, you know, because we believe and then we'll have our beliefs about. Teaching and learning then in our classrooms you will see and you are less likely to see these things. And I think when we invite a staff to coconstruct those sorts of statements and they are up in the spaces in public for everyone to see, it's really powerful at saying this is what. You should be able to walk into any class and see we have these agreed ways of being and doing here. And then of course from a leadership point of view, that means we've got we, we've got kind of criteria almost that allow us to have those difficult conversations with teachers when perhaps there are practices that don't align with those agreed ways.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, I think you're right documenting those. And that means when we're recruiting that we can be saying to potential staff interested in taking a position in the school. Well, you might want to read this document because this is, this is what this is who we are and it's not.
Cindy
Just words.
Kath Murdoch
Exactly, exactly. And I think that's that's another challenge, isn't it? I mean, every leader will, you know, relate to the challenge of. The right fit, you know, the right fit of that person coming into the environment, you want diversity. That's really, that's really important for a school. But at the same time, we also want alignment with the.
Cindy
Values.
Kath Murdoch
Poor values. And that. I mean, that is the Holy Grail, isn't it? Having a staff where we've got that and you can feel it. I work in a couple of schools at the moment where I can feel that alignment and it makes. For such a beautiful, rich and positive community, it's very special when you get it.
Cindy
Hear that leaders align behind your values. Make them clear.
Advice to new leaders (03:37)
Very cool. I'd love to pivot a little bit here. So we're talking about pretty established schools, you know, in our discussion. But I'm curious, if you had a brand new leader tuning in, asking you a question, what would be your advice? We're kind of just getting started in this work. Where should you begin?
Kath Murdoch
My my instinctive response is begin by listening. It's the same answer I would give a new teacher listen. And I think it's and I'm not saying anything revolutionary. You pick up any book about leadership and it pretty much says the same thing that we know. One of the I guess mistakes that that can be made in the enthusiasm we have as a new leader this is such an exciting and and you know privileged role is that we have lots of ideas and we've got a big vision for how we want a school to be and we can kind of jump in too quickly and. You know, the wise, the wise leaders that I've worked with have been the ones that have have moved in with with a kind of gentle, quiet strength. So they've started by talking to every single member of the staff. You know, we talk about it with kids, don't we? First rule of being a great teacher is know your students. First rule of being a great leader is know your staff, so have those individual conversations. Spend time in classrooms observing and listening. So I think that being a really great noticer and bringing that inquiry stance, asking lots of questions, you know, be a be an Inquirer, gather data, you will have been told lots about the school.
Kath Murdoch
In all your interviews and everything, but now you get a chance to see what's really going on and then you're in a much better position I think to start to, to start to really to. But it's it's leading by listening before you make any drastic decisions and and always just be real to be. Be your authentic self. Be prepared to be vulnerable and be an Inquirer and lean on the wisdom of those that have gone before. Because you know, as it's so interesting, Cindy, as I'm talking to you, I feel like I've got the ghosts of all these amazing leaders that I've worked with over the years on my shoulders. And there's so, so, so much wisdom. Out there from people that have been doing this work for decades. One of my emerging passions, maybe because I'm getting old, but one of my emerging passions is how do we document, gather and document the wisdom of that experience that has gone before as as those leaders inevitably, you know, finish their work in schools and retire and so on. There's such. Wisdom. So I'd say the other bit of advice is, is find a mentor and find someone you respect that is a great leader and and make sure they've got your back.
Cindy
I love that power, power of history and narrative that you're talking about there. And it just makes me think about as a school, what if we had almost like a book we handed from leader to leader of the lessons that we've learned that we can?
Kath Murdoch
Pass.
Cindy
Pass along. That's something that we don't take advantage of enough.
Teacher Inquiries (32:11)
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I look, I think we don't take. I think it's a beautiful idea. Even metaphorically, that's a beautiful idea. It's, you know, as I say, it's the wisdom of the elders, the wisdom of those that have gone before. And I think, you know, the the best schools I work in have this beautiful mix, this diversity of of freshness and passion and youth and energy and newness. In their staff and an appreciation of the wisdom of those with loads of experience. And sometimes we can be a little what's the word dismissive of people that have been in the profession for a long time, particularly if we see them as traditional or unwilling to change or not up with the technology. But there lies in every single teacher. Wisdom, the wisdom of experience that if we if we tap it can be real gold. So I think that having that kind of diverse ecosystem in a school is really powerful and in a in a system at large.
Cindy
What I'm hearing there, our people are our strongest resources.
Kath Murdoch
And we say that all.
Cindy
The time about our students is what do they know? What experiences have they had? But our teachers are the same and as leaders, if we don't take that time to get to know them, what a wasted opportunity.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, I I think that that's a it kind of circles back to the personal inquiry piece that I was talking about earlier that one of the things that we can do as leaders is not just encourage teachers to engage children in more personal inquiry, but to provide opportunities for staff to do the same. So this is work that has been going on for years and years and years in in New Zealand. Way ahead of the pack where there is an expectation that each teacher will have their own professional inquiry that they'll be engaged in through a year. It's certainly something that we're seeing happening more and more. For example, I'll be, you know, in early May I'll be at in one of my partner schools and through the day I'll be conferring with each teacher. Who will be pitching their idea to me for what they want to inquire into within a very broad scope it all that. The only only limitation I I think is that it has to be something to do with their teaching. So you know they can't necessarily learn about dinosaurs, mind you. You know I could be convinced but but each each one of them pitches an idea and and then. Engages in an inquiry throughout the year, oftentimes gathering data from something they're doing with their children. So not unlike a kind of action research model, my job is really like the teacher, conferring with the the student to offer resources and ideas and limit or broaden the scope to help them. But.
Kath Murdoch
Each of those teachers, then, at the end of the year, will be sharing, often in a really creative way, what they've learned with others. So the idea is that those individual projects contribute to the communities. Growth and they they share through the year as well, but we do a bit of a celebration at the end at the 9th and primary. I think I've got them to share actually at one of the total conferences. They have been using this model for years and it's that that gift I think to the community of allowing each teacher or encouraging each teacher to pursue a personal passion as an educator and then. Offering and contributing that learning back to the community is such a great model for professional learning and mirrors again what happens in a great inquiry classroom.
Cindy
I love that that was one of my questions for you. I was reading your blog about, but is it Bunnython fun?
Kath Murdoch
Say that nothing.
Cindy
But Nathan and I thought it was just really amazing, the model. Everyone should check out that blog. We'll link it in the podcast resources, but. What did they what else did they do in that school that you think could be replicated? What were parts of that model that really helped it to thrive?
Kath Murdoch
In the the professional inquiries.
Cindy
Yes.
Kath Murdoch
Well, I'm going to, you know in terms of leadership, the reason it thrives is largely because of particularly that means the firstly that Greg the principal who empowers. The the teacher leaders and the deputies to to run with this so that that wonderful kind of permission and vision and support from him. And then I think Amanda and Mark really as deputies they drive it so they run sessions some staff meetings are devoted to their personal inquiries. So they there's time again. Time, support, inspiration, feedback, you know, they they act as brokers for the teachers, also helping them plug into resources that might help them with their personal inquiries. And also the other interesting thing I think as a school, something that is quite unique to them is that every single person in that community, not just the classroom educators. The office staff engage in a personal inquiry as well. So it's everyone and I think that that strengthens it and it's and and they've really, they've really nurtured that over time. As you can imagine they've got bit of pushback from some people but it's now just become part of the culture and I think the other thing they've done that.
Kath Murdoch
Has made it work is every year they come up with a new and creative way of celebrating and sharing what the teachers have done. They've done one year. I think I wrote about it in that in that post, but I have a really strong memory of them. One year they went to this beautiful outdoor setting and everybody set up their own kind of exhibits, and then you they kind of walked a trail. Through reading and learning about each other's learning in this beautiful Bush setting. And then I think last year they devoted a whole week to it. They made it a bit of a festival and people offered sessions throughout the week. Other schools I've worked in, they've done kind of mini, like almost like little mini Ted Talks and. So I think it's it's celebrating and and again don't we do that with children, you think of the PYP exhibition for example this, this high stakes public sharing and contributing of something that we've done this deep dive into. So it's the same kind of approach that is really empowering for our educators too.
Cindy
Do you think that the launch is a necessary part of that? So I'm thinking of the book launch and it says you have to have an audience, you've got to get it out into the community. Can you do these types of professional inquiries without having an end of your exhibition or showcase?
Kath Murdoch
Of course, yeah, of course you can. I mean the the, the, the benefits happen along the way. You know, most teachers, when I've done this with schools, most of the teachers have chosen something that. That is in direct relation to something they want to see improved in their children's learning. So for example, they might say, look, I really want to strengthen my conferring skills. I'm really interested in strengthening kids writing. I want to get better at conferring. That's what I'm going to do my professional inquiry into. So the fact that they've chosen that, they're then. They're then kind of testing out and working on that inquiry with their children. So they're doing that throughout the year. So the impact is happening through the investigation. There's not too many people that choose something that they simply go and find out about by reading and then share what they've learned that most of them do. Again, there's a parallel when we do our personal inquiry work with our children, I very rarely. Sort of rubber stamp a proposal the child will give me where the only way they're going to find out is by Googling something or reading about it. We always encourage them to engage in some data collection with primary sources, and it's the same for teachers. So when they do that, and most often their primary sources of their children, the impact is happening.
Kath Murdoch
Through the process. So even if there isn't some kind of celebration at the end, the impact has already happened. And informally the impact happens because the teachers like something else that we do is we devote, as you heard me say before, we devote staff meetings to some staff meetings through the year, just to the personal inquiries where groups will get together and share where they're at, what's happening, problems they're encountering, what they're learning, so. They're they're learning from each other through the year too. And some teachers form groups or pairs and do it together if they've got a common interest. So again, they're learning from each other there. So yes, I think if you're just waiting to the end to benefit from everybody's investigations just the same as in the classroom, it's too late. Your all your eggs are in that. It's almost like. It's not quite this, but it's almost like the problem that we have with summative assessment versus formative assessment, that actually the formative assessments the most powerful along the way, and in the same way with a professional inquiry. It's the checking in along the way where the real contributions are made. I think the end the launch is is about feeling, feeling the thrill of a job well done.
Cindy
And do you find do leaders typically connect these personal projects for teachers to an action plan or to an accreditation or again do these more standalone and you wouldn't suggest connecting the two it?
Kath Murdoch
Depends. So I've had, I've worked with some schools where the leaders have said we're doing this, but what you choose needs to align with our current, you know, our five year. I'm having a mental blank about what we call them. Strategic plan. Yeah, there it is.
Cindy
I got you it is.
Kath Murdoch
Very early here and I haven't had coffee. Yeah. So where there's a there has to be an alignment with a strategic plan which is usually still very broad and allows for lots of diversity. So I have seen that I've another version I've seen is where there is an alignment between. Personal where teachers may be setting goals for their own performance, so they have a performance review or whatever the equivalent is, and then their personal project comes out of that performance review. And then I've also worked in settings where it's you choose whatever and we're not going to put any. Boundaries on it at all. And I don't think there's one best way because I think in the end it's about how you handle that. And as long as the teacher feels that they really do have a genuine voice and and are really able to negotiate and they're not, it's not like, you know, we get the sham personal inquiries, the fake inquiries that kids do to please their teachers. In the same way, we don't want teachers to fall into that trap, and and I want to say there is so many parallels here, I also want to say for people listening that this isn't the only form of professional development that's happening in the school. Just as personal inquiry isn't the only context for inquiry that's happening in the classroom. And in the classroom we have what we what I call our shared inquiries.
Kath Murdoch
So our units of inquiry for example and parallel we have our personal inquiries. So we inquire together, we inquire more personally. And the same is true in leading the professional learning in a staff. We do lots of collective shared inquiries into our teaching and learning. We have our workshop days, we all of that and. We might also have this little personal thread that's running through the year, but it requires time and support.
Cindy
I love that's a thread that keeps coming back. I think Kath is this concept of time and autonomy. Yeah, there are things we're going to share and do together as almost part of our curriculum.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah.
Cindy
And there's wiggle room with it. That too. But then there's also this extra beautiful layer of personal inquiry that.
Kath Murdoch
Has the depth, Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And and the time. A time for that needs to be provided. But I think I might be sounding like a cranky old teacher here. But I also think that we need to remember, and this might not go down very well with people, but I think we need to remember that as teachers, our working day, you know, we, our children may leave our classrooms and leave the school around 3330, depending on where you are in the world. But if we can have a headset, it's something that I used to say to the student teachers when I worked in a university. Think of us like any other profession, at any other profession that has got a university degree at that their day doesn't finish. I mean, 3-3 o'clock is the middle of the afternoon. Really. Most people's working day equivalent to ours would be start, you know, you'd be lucky to start at 8:30 and. You'd finish around 5:36 o'clock. So I also think if we can have in our minds at that time once the children leave, particularly if there aren't meetings, but that that is time that we can devote to whether it's planning our professional inquiry, that not to feel resentful of time after school, that's not really after school if we can think of of our day like other professionals.
Kath Murdoch
And and most of the people I know that are not in a teaching profession but are in, you know, other other professions, you know, they do bits and pieces of work on the weekend too. They, you know, we're not the only ones that are expected to do things, if you like, out of hours. So I think thinking of that time as actually being available to us too. But but not not everybody sees it like that. But as I say, that's. One way that can help you even just psychologically not feel resentful of time after school if you just think, actually, that is my this is my day. Keep like other people I that gosh, you'd feel most people would feel delighted to walk out the door at 5530.
Cindy
But even having that, that slice of your day that is yours, that as a teacher, so much of our day we do give to our students and to a million other things. Absolutely. My personalized inquiry can be the thing that's for me and rather than on top of my plate, it's the thing that fills my cup when there may be million other things draining it.
Kath Murdoch
It's a great way to think of it. I mean, we've often, you know, most of us have got something that we just mean my my desk right now there's there's like 3 books I'm looking at that I can't wait to get into. And so the time, you know, carving that time out. For this, and especially if you're if you're actually passionate about it, and I think this is what good leaders allow, you know, they they recognize the spark in every teacher on their staff, the thing that that teacher is really great at and that would love to learn more about or do even better and give that teacher time to really grow and blossom in. There, because because we've all got something, right? We've all got that spark of something. And I think yes, if you can marry the the passion then with the opportunity to to dive into it and then the expectation that you will gift your learning to others in some way, then you've got the the perfect elements of of personal professional inquiry for teachers.
Cindy
Beautiful. One last question before we get into our final three CAF. I'm thinking about resources. So like, I've worked in schools where the only thing we have is a printer and paper, and I've also worked at schools where we have a world of resources.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah.
Resources that support inquiry (50:17)
Cindy
If I'm a leader thinking about implementing inquiry based pedagogy, like what are resources that are game changers or must?
Kath Murdoch
Have to have.
Cindy
Inquiry happen.
Kath Murdoch
I guess there's two. I'm thinking at 2 levels again, I'm thinking classroom level and then I'm thinking staff. Staff level, you know, love that the teachers need. So I think classroom level, you don't need a whole lot, you would know that Cindy, you know, I've seen some of the best inquiry learning happening in the most resource poor schools and conversely I've seen some. Pretty ordinary stuff happening in the wealthiest resource, most resource rich schools. So it's in the end it's you know it's about the the teachers passion and knowledge and pedagogy The what came to mind when you asked that question though was materials was. Just having some, I'm going to say loose parts natural materials, particularly with our younger learners. But because I work in the primary area, I can't imagine using an inquiry based approach without having loose parts, baskets of shells and blocks and buttons and wood off cuts and things that the kids can make, play, explore and tinker with. So and that's a really cheap. Resource to get this lot in most places there are you know you know factory off cuts that you can go and get or and and you can get materials from you know thrift stores and that kind of thing. So I'd say certainly for classrooms that we, I mean in terms of resources we again we don't need a laptop per child but certainly having enough by way of.
Kath Murdoch
Digital technologies that allow teachers and children to access information from videos and websites and so on, that's that's pretty important these days. They they're the the first things that come to mind for me as far as the classroom goes. I mean I want to say an decent kind of outdoor space too, but that's so dependent on where you are and then for the staff, professional literature. Stuff to read I I I think that having really good quality professional literature in accessible spaces, so not locked up in or not in in a library that the teachers don't get to go to, but somewhere you know a a planning room, ideally the staff room, somewhere where they are displayed and easy to access. I think you just can't go past. I think it's it's an interesting time, you know, when we now have social media and so much of teachers, professional learning or even much to my horror, sometimes they're the resources that they're getting are from rather spurious websites. You know, I'm going to call out something like Teachers pay teachers where there's no quality control. And so young teachers that might be thinking, oh, this looks like a great worksheet, you know, so I think we can often, I mean I participate in that social media world, but again, the.
Kath Murdoch
I think if you can compare what you might read in a tweet or an Instagram post to actually picking up, you know, a Stephanie Harvey book or picking up a book by, you know, I've got, I've got Deb Curtis and Margie Carter's latest Art of Awareness edition on my desk right now. And you know, this is the third edition. I've got the other two as well. This is my go to for learning how to observe. Children, no Instagram post, tweet or Facebook entry is going to teach me in the kind of depth that this book does. So I think that for me and again may well be a slightly older perspective, but I think having that as well as the the amazing resources we can get online, but having some books, really good ones. By you, you you know a range of of authors in relation to inquiry. Is a pretty beautiful resource to have in a school.
Cindy
Trevor and I talked about this, about just the value of the right book at the right time from the right person and how transformative that can be for your practice.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. When I run workshops, I often ask teachers what's the last professional reading. That you did what or what's the book that you just go back and back to as an educator? And I I am finding that there's again, because we've got this whole digital world and social media world that we often have teachers that may not have experienced the joy of some of these incredible books. You know, I've got Donald Grave's book. Writing teachers and children at work that I bought as a student teacher in the in the early 80s. And it's a book that I return to again and again and again and it absolutely forged who I was as a teacher of writing in my early career. And I've read lots and lots and lots of other books about writing since. But I think, yeah, I think you're right, there is something. Yeah, the right book at the right time. So from a leadership point of view, doesn't that mean we need to be across what's out there? I mean you know, perhaps that's the beginning of a staff meeting is this is what I'm reading at the moment. It's amazing. I'm learning a lot. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm going to leave a couple of copies in the staff room. I, some of my wonderful leaders give their staff a Christmas present.
Kath Murdoch
You know, every year of, you know, one or two books and it's like it's a gift. It doesn't have to stay in the school. It's for them. And for us, Christmas is the beginning of our long break, right? So it's also like, read this over the break and we're going to come back and we're going to have a book club about it next year. But it's also yours. Or they'll do it in the beginning of the year or when they've got a new staff member, They're kind of. You know, welcome. They're welcome. Pack includes some books that that resonate with the the culture of the school. So yeah, I'm a big one for books and that sounds incredibly self-serving given that I like them, but even if I didn't, I would be saying the same thing.
Cindy
Well, you write some incredible books cast, so they should be on those leadership shelves for sure.
Kath Murdoch
Thank you.
School Leaders’ Countdown: The Final 3! (57:53)
Cindy
I think that's a perfect transition to our final three. So the final three are the three questions that I ask every guest who comes on the show. So Are you ready for our final three, Kath?
Kath Murdoch
I am. I'm intrigued, OK?
Cindy
The first one you've kind of answered, but I would still just clarify what is a book that has had the most profound impact on your life and or practice?
Kath Murdoch
I did just answer it, didn't I yet look. It just pops up in my mind. I mean, so many have. It's really hard to pick just one that that Donald Graves one was incredibly impactful. But I'm going to say because I said that one, I'm allowed to choose a different one and I'm going to choose Peter Johnson's choice words when I read choice words many years ago. It was the first time I really, really understood the concept of agency well, before it became the groovy word that everyone talks about now. Peter's way of describing it really landed with me and and that book. It's a good ghost that that haunts me when I teach because it's about the language that we use, what we say and how we say it, and the impact that that has on the learner's understanding of learning and sense of self as a learner. And yeah, that's with me in every time I step into a classroom and work with kids. So Peter Johnson's choice words should be on every teacher's bookshelf.
Cindy
Beautiful. I'll add that one to my.
Kath Murdoch
List You should. You'll love it.
Cindy
OK. My second question for you, This is my personal inquiry because I tend to find that leaders, when you talk to them tend to fall in a camp right there, either really productivity driven, you know, we want results we want to be achieving and then other leaders tend to be more sustainability values, mindset, joy driven. So I'm wondering how do we strike this balance as leaders between having incredibly joyous workplaces but also really productive workplaces?
Kath Murdoch
Oh wow. I think if you if you could quantify and articulate the answer to that question, that would be amazing. My hope.
Cindy
For this podcast, you know I don't.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah. Look you know when when you were saying that I a few leaders were coming into my mind that that do combine that that that have really. High standards and high expectations. There's a lot of rigor in their schools and there's also a lot of warmth. Many, many years ago, a colleague at the University of Melbourne, Neville Johnson, introduced me to a really simple thing where he talked about two kinds of care that you could feel when you went into a staff room either. A strong culture of professional care, where everyone was talking about their work and teaching and learning and kids learning, and a culture of personal care which was all about connecting with each other and knowing each other's lives and looking after each other. And he was saying, if you've got too much, if it's all professional care, it can be a really cold place to work. And if it's too, if it's just personal care, it can be all. You know beautiful and touchy filly and woman a great but the the rigor might be pretty low and that we've got to get that balance right. So maybe as leaders just having this even just having an awareness of this balance like what am what questions am I asking and what conversations am I having in the staff room and with my teachers that ensure that we are talking about.
Kath Murdoch
Teaching and learning. I do go to some schools where you don't hear a lot of talk about teaching and learning, a lot of talk about football, but not a lot of talk about teaching and learning. Seriously. But am I? Am I having those conversations through the day? But am I also like really intentionally remembering to have conversations? And some of us have to be, have to remind ourselves to do this where I'm asking people about their families, about their weekend. About their their wellbeing. And I think being intentional with both of those things, even, you know, before I walk into the office every day. So right today my job is to have conversations that both nurture personal and professional care. Perhaps by being intentional around those two things, we strike the kind of balance that you're talking about.
Cindy
And maybe even knowing your bias, like I tend to be more personal, so I should try to ask more professional questions or the other way around.
Kath Murdoch
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And seeking feedback about that. So if you're brave and you're inviting your staff, just like we invite children to share their feedback with us about our style, our way of being. Using perhaps that language, if we get that feedback because we might be blind to our bias. So once you've had that feedback then it can be you can be more intentional one way or the other.
Cindy
That is very cool food for thought. Our final question of today is Kath, you have so much experience, right? You've you've been with schools and leaders around the world. It's not quite this, but it's almost like the problem that we have with summative assessment versus formative assessment, that actually the formative assessments the most powerful along the way, and in the same way with a professional inquiry. It's the checking in along the way where the real contributions are made. I think the end the launch is is about feeling, feeling the thrill of a job well done.
Kath Murdoch
Be my I think again, you've sort of got got to go with your gut with these questions, don't you? So my the thing that came to mind then I literally had. A vision of one of my favorite principals walking into a classroom. So I think my piece of advice would be never. That's what I tell myself. To never lose sight of the fact that you are a teacher. Yep, you might be a principal, might be an educate, you might be the big boss. But you're a teacher. That's where you started, and that's where your heart has to stay. And that means. Don't disconnect from the classroom and spend some time, hard as it can be, because Oh my goodness, I mean the job of a principal these days for any leader is huge. But spend time, stay. Make sure that you carve some time, if not each day, definitely each week with children, ideally doing some teaching, go in and say to teachers. Can I just take your class for an hour tomorrow? I just tell me I'm happy that, you know, keep that connection. I'm not a leader in the traditional sense of leading a school, but I do. There's some alignment with the work I do and what a leader does, and I know that doing lots of classroom teaching helps keep my feet on the ground and helps me do a better job of.
Kath Murdoch
Leading professional learning. So that would be my advice. Keep, stay, don't lose your teacher self and get into classrooms and do some teaching if you can. I know it's hard but if you can do.
Cindy
That's absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much, Kath. There's so many ahas from the episode. Just the themes of autonomy and time and just. Modeling, modeling, modeling have shown through. So thank you so much for your time.
Kath Murdoch
Today it's been a real pleasure and a joy speaking with you, Cindy. I I am. I'm very grateful to be invited to be part of the podcast. Thank you so much.
Cindy
Thanks so much.
